Feedback is one of the most effective tools for improving ourselves. In his book, “Talent is Overrated,” Georff Colvin makes
the case that people with superior skills and abilities usually developed those skills because of feedback over time, rather than innate talent.
No one would argue against the idea that some people seem to have an innate charisma. Some men and women just seem to have that special something that makes it easy to get dates.
I was having a conversation with a psychotherapist friend of mine the other day, who described a woman she was seeing in psychotherapy. Her words were, “She’s one of those women that you can just see a man would love deeply.”
Her words surprised me. I mean, we all know there are some people that seem to have special qualities, but the quality she described seemed to imply a set of attributes that made this woman loveable. I couldn’t disagree with the concept; it just surprised me to hear her say it that way.
As I thought about it, I realized the problem I had with her statement. Love is so unique and specific to the unique individuals who fall in love. Nonetheless, it got me thinking about the strategies of another friend who is a relationship and dating coach like me. She focuses her approach on one thing, getting feedback for her clients from the guys who never call back. I began to wonder if a person might be able to use feedback to improve how “loveable” they seemed to others on first impression.
It sounds rather repulsive at first, but her perspective is that you cannot improve your unique blind spots (in the way you come across to men) unless you get specific (sometimes hard to hear) feedback from the guys that don’t call for a second date. It sounds painful, yet I have to agree that it could be immensely helpful for women who have a strong enough self-esteem to learn from the feedback rather than just being emotionally crushed by it.
Feedback is what allows a tennis player to improve his or her serve. Imagine going out to practice serving a tennis ball while blindfolded. You would never be able to see if the ball landed in the correct place. Without feedback, your practice would be useless no matter how many hours you practiced.
Geoff Colvin makes the case that “disciplined practice” is different than regular old practice. The difference is that you specifically target your weak spots and repeatedly seek feedback as you go over and over the difficult aspects of some skill.
For example, when I was a kid, I practiced my piano pieces all the way through each time during my 30-minute piano practice sessions. Colvin suggests I would have gotten better at the piano faster, if I had repeatedly practiced the spot where I stumbled and faltered, rather than practicing that spot equally with all the easy parts as I played a piece from beginning to end. This small change makes me focus on the feedback that is critical to improving my ability to play the piece.
Many women object to the idea of getting feedback. They feel it is not necessary to change in order to please a man. If he likes you, then maybe it’s a good match, if he doesn’t; good riddance.
While I agree there is quite a bit of truth in that perspective, I also see the value of pursuing information that can stop pain. If there are men who could learn deeply to love you, but they think you are a “dog freak” because you showed them pictures of your dog on the first date and had dog hair on your coat, well, maybe that feedback could help you polish the first impression you make on future dates. That way, you can avoid turning him off before he even gets to know all your wonderful qualities, and he can learn to love dogs at the same time he learns to love you!
The truth is there are thousands of little stereotypes and fals
e impressions people use to “rule out” a potential partner. Feedback can be useful in discovering the unique way you come across. A lot of the time it will be the other person’s issues, not yours, that cause them not to call for a second date. However, if there is a theme that seems to show up in the feedback you get, that would be valuable information to take into account as you work to find a compatible partner.
So how do you get that feedback? Well, it may sound scary, but the dating coach who focuses on this method suggests you get a close friend to make a sort of “third party” phone call to any man who seems to drift away or never call back. You teach your friend how to interview the guy briefly for specifics rather than the generalities that people usually offer when you first ask them if they could say what turned them away from continued pursuit.
Would you ever consider doing this? Do you think this is a good idea or a crazy one? Does this concept take the magic out of dating and finding the right partner, or do you see it as a potential tool you could use to increase your success in finding a great relationship? Please share your comments below for the sake of others in the community who read this blog. I am also curious to hear your opinions.
Hi James,
First off I would like to thank you for your insight and valuable articles. They have helped me in directing and/or redirecting my mindset in regards to dating. I have had numerous situations where I have had “what I thought were great first encounters” only to not hear from the man again. For whatever reasons many men do not relay error messages when we as women do meet their expectations or see something in us that is a turnoff. Some men don’t tell because they do not want to mess up their opportunities for sexual intimacy, some men don’t tell because they do not want to deal with the potential reaction that their honesty can trigger, some men are to shy, some men do not care, and those that do care enough to share have to be able to take whatever comes and know when to walk away from the reaction whether it be anger, tears, etc. I have recently had the opportunity to receive feedback from a man who was willing to be direct as his belief was that I needed to know what I was doing wrong. As hard as it was to hear it helped me to reprioritize my values and I am grateful for his doing so.
As for your questions at the end of this article:
1. Would you ever consider doing this?
Yes, I would consider doing this.
2. Do you think this is a good idea or a crazy one?
I think it is a good idea although the one seeking the feedback will be best served if she accepts that the man may not wish to divulge this information for reasons of his own and that accepting his no, although painful and difficult, is necessary for her to move on without the information.
3. Does this concept take the magic out of dating and finding the right partner, or do you see it as a potential tool you could use to increase your success in finding a great relationship?
I do not think this concept takes the magic out of dating and finding the right partner. It can actually be a catalyst in deeper self-reflection provided one is prepared to see the feedback as valuable information that can help them to make any changes within themselves if they should so choose to do so. However, If the one receiving the feedback gets defensive and tries to explain away the feedback they receive then it could possibly do more damage than good. I believe the person seeking the feedback would need to be open to corrective criticism as humbling or humiliating as that can be. If the feedback is accepted for what it is…..valuable information…..then it is a great tool that can increase the possibility of finding that right person.
Thank you
Wow! Linda, this is very insightful! Thank you for sharing your valuable thoughts and experience on this topic.
James
You are most welcome. I appreciate the opportunity.
It is nice that you care enough to offer assistance…..has it occurred to you that it is nto just the womwn that need the assist? Men today are hopelessly short in the things that it takes also tobe acceptable. I was married when very young and have been divorced a very long time. Havinghad many relatioships and opportunities Ihave to say it is the men that lacked terribley. I can count on half of one hand the men that would have been okay to have married had they one; been married (not going there), two; not had been liars and three; not been someone I would have as a friend, but would not want to be married to. Now it is too late….who wants someone when they are older and know exactly what they want in a mate, but never find them? I am nice looking, worth the effort, can take care of myself, very capable of loving and being a really good catch. The ones I gave a chance to were the ones that were around..ones available and proved to be just not worth the effort on MY part. Everyone has faults but it is not just the women that need the feedback…men do to and a lot of it! Many are not capable of being monogamous or of showing love, talking or being really decent men! Too many just seem oblivious of common courtesy or brain power?? Have to say many women are that and worse in a different way, BUT we are the champions of loving however!
Hi Ruth. Yes, of course I think this feedback issue applies even more for men than it does for women. But of course this website is exclusively for women which is why you don’t see me giving advice to men on this platform.
James
This comment is for Marie who has probably worked through this by now. A woman’s intuition is a special gift that we seem to ignore in the face of our expectations. We can usually trust our intuition if we consider our usual behavior to be logical and mature, so if ‘one of these things is not like the other’ it isn’t.
Marie, if your instinct is telling you that he is pulling back, he is. And it is because his intuition is giving him his own message about you.
This doesn’t mean that he isn’t interested in a committed relationship. What it does mean is that you are not allowing him to give chase. And you know why. I don’t have to spell it out.
May I make a few suggestions?
– There is a nice mantra you can repeat to yourself that will change your inner paradigm – “I want ….(name) in my life but I don’t need him in my life”.
– Unless you have had the conversation and agree to be in a monogamous and committed relationship, you are single and dating.
– As so many have already mentioned – give him ‘the gift’ of missing you.
– Take your life back. This man needs to be one of your priorities not ‘the’ priority. I’m sure you are quite accomplished with some nice friends and interests of your own. Go pamper yourself with them.
Hope you are well on your way and that my comments are superfluous.
With Love
JJ
If I meet a man for a first date, I seldom find that they don’t want to continue dating me, but as I’m currently single (and 77) I am on 3 dating sites and do not get responses for a first date from some men who I find interesting. I’m specifically searching men in their 70s who are 5’4″ to 5’9″ as I’m just 5′. I’m slender but their weight does not matter unless extreme in either direction. Many of them don’t mention all their activities, so I want to meet them to discuss all of that. Perhaps I need someone to critique my profile or messages.
Do you send a personalized message? “Smiles” and canned short remarks don’t make it. I get great response by reading his profile, commenting on what interest we share and then ASKING HIM A QUESTION so he has something to reply to.
I’m assuming from my experience that even if you’ll get an honest feedback, it is more about the person giving it. I switched the situation around, and asked myself: what feedback I would give to men I was dating? My own answers impelled me to lake a closer look into my soul and what I’m looking for in a partner.
I think, the feedback after one or two dates can be misleading and hurtful,… but it can also be fun and educational. Just don’t put too much weight on it. Ask your true friends about your habits, quirks and little things that annoy them. Look for the answers “between the lines”.
Also, sometimes people can’t verbalize what the subconscious mind is telling them. The color that you are wore or the smell of the food you’ve ordered, can be a reminder of some traumatic experience from the past. Did you ever wonder why some dates that went wonderfully, with so much promise did not continue? Someone was self-sabotaging?
There are so many variables that can make your head spin:) The common sense, intuition and sense of humor helps me the most in this emotionally charged subject.
Goja,
Thank you for those incredibly insightful comments. There’s a great deal of wisdom in your perception of this topic of discussion. I appreciate your comments and the time you took to share these useful thoughts with the rest of us.
Thank you, James for your kind words. This means a lot to me, especially that I’m not a native speaker. I am so glad that my comment has some value to you – even with couple of grammatical errors that escaped my attention 😉
I probably wouldn’t do it and luckily in my current relationship my boyfriend isn’t afraid to be honest with me about what he sees – so i’m getting feedback.
It is however, invaluable, you don’t always understand how other people see you, it’s so hard for someone else to really know you.
I think feedback is good if it puts you on a positive road.
I think it’s not an easy thing to secure. More easily would be, to ask friends; as they know the mistakes we are most likely making, but love us too much to say.(Honesty requires courage) Being in-tune with the other person’s body language can normally tell the ‘stuff up’ moment on first dates – as usually the body language will be reflected back ie. eyebrow raise; moving away; a moments silence, uneasy body language etc. There will be a subtle shift in the other person. I think most of the relationship coaches (when combined) give invaluable information; but like tennis we need to practice what you coaches tell us. I’ve learnt more in 12 months reading blogs etc (and adjusting my habits accordingly) than I’d learnt in 15 yrs of marriage. Slowly I’m getting better at presenting, sorting dates and getting closer to finding a good match. My confidence has soared since enlisting various relationship coach blogs. But I was willing to admit I really didn’t understand guys and their world;, started to get into their shoes, whilst rebulding myself; and became an enthusiastic student. Thanks; you are awesome!
I think it is important to make the distinction between those that think with their heart and those that think with their brain. I fell in love with a man and we connected at a very deep emotional level without being overly compatible in other ways…. it was like an animal attraction. It has ended without explanation, but I am now in a relationship with a more “in your head” kind of man and we are very compatible….. but the passion just isnt there. Some people really think with their heart and are completely unable to put their feelings of pressure, fear or pulling away, into words…. they follow a feeling rather than a logical thought…. these are the people that leave broken hearts in their wake…. whereas I am sure if my current relationship ends, I will get a full and complete explanation!! Neither partner is better…. just different! Explanations are not always that easy to get.
No passion? Are you sure this isn’t a friendship you’re describing?
I would certainly like to know… feedback is priceless – what a great idea…!!
I’m a dancer – I learned how to dance and became better and better at it by firstly seeing my movement in the mirror, spotting the details that were not up to my standard and practicing them over and over to correct them until the desired projection was just to my standard.
Then I would ask my dance teacher or someone else to dance with me and give me their feedback. they would ALWAYS see more things to improve…as our projection is always different when dancing with someone else, when reacting, when following their lead…unexpected, uncontrolled or unconscious changes apply to our projection. Their feedback was key to becoming a good dancer in a partner dance, a good dance partner, not just a good individual dancer.
My point is that a mirror = our own angle of view is not enough because our own perspective is limitEd.
So I do agree – how wonderful it would be to be able to get all that useful feedback to grow and improve my dating and romantic relationships..!!
One question: what would be the right questions that the 3rd party should ask the guy who didn’t call so as to avoid the ‘classic a white lies’ answers and encourage them to share the real reasons why the date didn’t turn into a potential relationship?
Good question. One approach would be to politely label the “white lie response” for what it is and ask for specific thoughts or points of perceived incompatibility he suspected after the first date. Then just be silent long enough for him to realize you won’t disappear without a genuine (real) response. I think persistence is the key rather than specific wording.
The other key piece to using feedback effectively (if you decide this is something your self esteem is ready to handle and learn from) is to gather feedback first from a period of time of first dates, then look for any themes that may emerge as far as what could possibly be an area for you to work on and improve. It could be if feedback is gathered and implemented on a date by date basis, that the feedback you receive from what one guy did not relate to or particularly like about you, or the date, could possibly be what the next guy loves and falls in love with!
I too think feedback would be a valuable tool, especially for the things you had described. ie: dog hair and dog pictures at coffee. Feedback would certainly be a ton of help in that regard however, my feeling is that honest feedback on deeper matters would be difficult to obtain.
First, getting a friend to interview a person you only met once would be difficult and it might be hard to get an honest response or even a response at all. I don’t feel a stranger would give you the truth because he may not want to hurt you or has already discarded you in his mind and would just say anything to “get rid” of the caller. He might also feel harassed.
Second, I think this is asking a heck of a lot from a friend and I would prefer to do it myself and not involve them.
I think if you had a pleasant enough meeting and the person didn’t call back, certainly a text asking what the turn-off was might be helpful. (if he was honest you’d have to weigh what he said)
Also, and I have done this, just watch the person very closely on the date. I have actually seen where I’ve blown a date just by watching his body language.
One of my corrections to make was too much information too soon. For me, just watching the shift in his body language after I went on about one of me kids was the feedback. I have learned that a closed mouth gathers no foot. Sure, he knows I’ve got kids before we do coffee but I’ve learned to keep that chatter to a dull bloody roar now. We’re there to talk about me and him, not my dog or my kids – that comes much later.
This one is hard for me. I just dated someone for a month (see above), and I am struggling that I did something wrong with him. I would want feedback, but he showed me he was not available from pretty much day one talking about his work priority and that women did not always get it. Therefore, I am not sure the feedback would be helpful because we are not looking for the same things…..
Thoughts?
Right. In this case it seems he wants to live his life in a way that is not attractive to you (working all the time and putting relationships second). However, it is possible that something else is the real cause of his lack of interest in making the relationship something more. Maybe the feedback could be useful.
I would imagine he felt i was pushing for a relationship. Which is something i want. but i expressed that as what i was looking for in general and that sex would not enter our interaction until we are exclusive (but that i was really attracted to him, and love sex in a relationship). That seemed to have forced the conversation somewhat, which was not my goal. In his world, he could not commit to even something a few days away, and would always need an out. My guess is he felt pressured, I felt unsafe, and I ended it. When I ended it, he sent me a lovely note saying he appreciated my directness, that I was a great listener communicator, fun date and the loved how we could share. Do men say those things because they have to? Or feel obligated.
In the end, he would say I wanted more than he could give. Might he be motivated to give more to someone else? Maybe. But a man who cannot articulate in any way what he wants, says women do not understand him, that his relationships are based on intensity, and that he wants a partner for his extra time, and does not want a traditional American relationship and admittedly has had bad breakups – is most likely not a great partner. But again, maybe I was not inspiring enough….
If you ask for feedback from someone who is still on a dating site and also looking interested in your female friends, you are going to lose. Not only do you give the impression you’re needy, you are putting yourself in a vulnerable place and easily blown out of the water by a person who isn’t displaying any signs of the commensurate deeper feelings you’re seeking.
If you want to stay sane, balanced and dignified, do nothing and watch.
See slightly less of him and stay happy in yourself.
Teresa
I think there is value in your perspective, Teresa. However, it seems you missed the context in which you would seek this kind of feedback. It’s only for relationships that end and do not progress after first impressions. You don’t need to worry about appearing needy when the relationship ended.
Why is a third party needed? Why not just ask the guy yourself? I have and gotten honest answers (once it was my being older than he was – absolutely nothing I could do about that). Unfortunately, it’s usually me that doesn’t want the second date…
Hi Nina. That can work too. It’s just more difficult to get a straight answer, because kind people don’t want to hurt your feelings by giving a blunt answer.
360degree feedback is the fastest way to know how i have been showing up and stop the damage , increase more positive ways of projecting myself to potential long term partners
I am sorry for you as firstly you said you were seeing each other on casual basis, obviously now you are enjoying the intimate times with him, but seriously if that is how he is now,it seems to me as if he is a bit of a player, especially as you mention he is looking at one of your female friends. I personally think that if you cant discuss this with him I would walk away as he seems to be just taking what he wants and leaving the rest and you are going to feel worst if you dont take the time out for you. Take good care.
Dollars to donuts you already know what that feedback will be. If you are self conscious about something (and all women are self conscious about SOMETHING) that lack of self confidence will stick out like a sore thumb. I tend to think that most women (and I am guilty of this but working on it) would do best to focus on being present in the moment when out with someone new (or established, for that matter) instead of constantly analyzing what is happening, how they are portraying themselves, how are they being received in the eyes of the one they are trying to impress, etc etc. Self confidence is the sexiest thing on the planet, second to shared moments of intimacy where both parties are really present. That doesn’t mean sex. That means actively listening and responding emotionally to what your partner is doing and saying without analyzing everything.
I would be uninterested in third party feedback. Why beat yourself up? It could possibly even lead to more adverse effects as you obsess about changing that behavior/portrayal/dog hair on your jacket in the future instead of actually connecting with someone on a deeper level and exploring possible chemistry. My two cents.
I agree Kate. Presence is far more alluring than worrying about his triggers. You just can’t worry about them. Everyone is too different–someone will find something totally endearing and another will be turned off. Remember, we’re sizing him up with a maybe–not an “OMG pick me!” mentality. So is he, if he’s worth his salt. Third party feedback always becomes a Chinese phone call–translated badly and sometimes even profoundly skewed!
I would actually appreciate this kind of feedback. Even if it is after just one date. First impressions are important. And of course I would consider the source as well and what my own first imppressions of him were. I’m pretty darned good at reading people and absolutely trust my instincts.
First impressions aren’t worth much. If you can learn how to control others first impression of you, so can anyone else. In fact, there are plenty of people who can manage their impression over time. It gets harder for them the closer you get to them.
Don’t get me wrong, our brains evolved for the purpose of protecting ourselves from things we don’t think are good for us. Our imagination is part of that. It’s just really too bad it makes a lot of assumptions on so little information. Instincts do improve over time and with a variety of experiences so it’s not all bad, just rather flawed if you rely only on instinct with no facts.
I think feedback is a valuable tool but to elicit feedback from a person who only saw you once may not be the best feedback. Like you said in your blog, the issues may be the date himself and there are too many other things that may come into play and interfere with honest feedback. Some guys may not want to say anything that they think may be hurtful. But if you have a strong inner sense of self and think you can take any type of feedback for the purpose of growing from it , well, then, let the game begin.
I am seeing a man for over 4 months now on a casual basis. We seem to enjoy each other’s company, intimacy is awesome and passionate but we didn’t seem to have the same plans for our futures this is why none of us has brought up discussions about relationship, exclusivity or commitment.
This was working fine until a couple of weeks ago when I realised that I was developing deeper feelings and that I am willing to compromise on some of our diverging life plans.
The problem is I feel he is slightly withdrawing from me. Is he feeling my insecurities (I hide them very well I think)? Or on the opposite I have been sending the wrong signals by not showing my true feelings towards him? He also seems to be getting quite close to one of my female friends and he is on a dating site which did not bother me until now.
Talking about a past date, he once mentioned that once the momentum of a romantic encounter is gone, it’s nearly impossible for him to get it back.
I am so scared of losing him. I need an honest feedback which I don’t seem to get from my girl friends. Please advise!
You need to back off and try to relax. Put your focus on your own interests, friends, work, etc., otherwise he will feel your panic and retreat. If you chase, he will run. Men do not like feeling pursued. They like to feel “in control” of the situation and if he wants you, he will be lured back. Otherwise, he’s not worth your energy. (Trust me–I speak from hard learned experience!)
I believe your advice is sound for situations where you think there might still be a chance for re-engaging the man in a relationship.
I would say it is good to go back to the web site, where you met him and see who else is available for you and how you can be interested in someone else. First this will make you feel a desirable woman again, if other men start showing you their interest in meeting you. That will change your vive from being needy to being self confident and keeping your options opened. Secondly this guy, that you are so afraid to loose right now, might be notice that you are open for other encounters with other people and would be afraid to loose you! Or, if not, you will be in the process of meeting new men in your life and his loosing interest towards you would not hurt your feelings too much! If he come back to you asking to try again to improve your relationship, that would be a right moment to ask him his feedback Why he started loosing his interest in the first phase of your relationship.
I hope it can be useful for your situation, Marie.
Sorry but the momentum is gone. Get on a dating site yourself. Go on dates with yourself. Do things that make you feel happy. Ask him to go with you. If he doesn’t want to, say ok, walk out the door and go have fun. Don’t change your plans. If he doesn’t come around, he just isn’t the guy for you. My two cents.
This is a classic why buy the milk if you can get the cow for free scenario.
He has been getting the milk for free for a while now (4months is it?) and he is spoiled. The milk was commitment free. I have learned the hard way myself that if you give “no strings attached” intimacy (though you call it just seeing each other, it is still more or less NSA), that the probability of turning it into a committed relationship is so small.
THE BEST ADVICE I COULD GIVE IS to stop the sex and intimacy immediately, make him miss you, but let him know you are looking for a committed/exclusive relationship. He will either come back to you (after going on 10 hopeless dates) or miss you (after going on 10 hopeless dates) or he won’t do either and if that is the case, he would have never given you a monogamous relationship.
If that is the situation, then you are better off knowing that. It is also a last very important fact: THAT MEN ARE LIKE DOGS, YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE BONE AWAY FROM THEM, for them to try/try/try to get it again. They will leap and jump high as needed to get the bone. But if you continue to give it to him under this current pretext (he can see others), he will fight to keep it that way (expectation of doggy treat every weekend). Something has to change for him to value what you are giving. That change is definitely take it away until he commits.
Pardon all the dog and biscuit references :). I have lived thru this believe me, and it worked. In another situation it didn’t (with ex-boyfriend who I had no strings attached sex after we broke up. We were a couple a year ago. Sex, no sex, he did not want to get back together…but if he could get sex, he was more than glad to get it for as long as he could with zero commitment.
We were a couple I meant for a year. Not sure how “ago” got in there.
Hi Poonam543,
I would disagree with you about taking the sex pleasure and intimacy away from the man, who is not committed, can help to bring him back to the relationship you want. Sex and intimacy are important for both partners, not just for a man you are dating now. If you consider a sexual relationship as a treat for him, just like a dog gets his treat, when he behaves good, then something is missing in here. If you don’t get those pleasurable moments on your end, and think the guy is getting something From you, while having sex with him, it feels like a trade or a market deal: you give a man intimacy, he suppose to behave the way you expect him to do. That does not sounds right to me. There is something more than just sex that brings two people together: understanding, loyalty, acceptance and mental support, the willingness to be together and do all kind of things together, not just sleeping in one bad. If the guy wants Just sex with the woman, than he might be a wrong person for the relationship. Or he does not see the other of her qualities, that are great and remarkable, and this might be because he was not introduced properly to those of her sides, or they were hidden from him from the beginning of their dating time. If the sex was giving to a man as a bone to the dog, just to keep his interest in this woman, there is a problem here. The mutual relationship would not be developing in such environment!
That is my two cents to this discussion here. Sorry for some possible grammar errors, it is my second language.
Sveta.
It’s not about hiding your feelings, it’s about expressing them in the way that makes you vulnerable yet strong for your own purpose.
Oh honey, I just had one of these. we dated a month, and his first passion was work, and i was hoping that was not true. I finally ended it, but I am a month out of it,and still miss him.
You already knew that you were not compatible, but now you are internalizing it, instead of moving on. I am not saying you should not communicate your feelings, but one of the hardest feed backs to get is that it simply won’t work, no ones fault.
He is pursuing other women. If he wanted to exclusive with you, he would be. Are you thinking about him with the other women and if he is treating them better? This is a clue to move on.
I suggest one conversation – something like – let’s have an honest convo and if we are in different places, so be it. I am feeling deeper, are you open to that? I am looking for more connection and commitment, are you? But, you should be prepared to walk away…
Best of luck.
In reply to the letter above, I think your guy is a commitment-phobe. life was easy sharing the good things, making it a fun time for you both… but any sign of serious intention has cooled his ardour. He may be also harbouring weaknesses within himself which he doesn’t want you to know about… or he is a thrill-seeker. Not a good sign.. Helenx
Hi Marie
I have left you a note in the wrong section and somewhere down the page.
If you are interested, I hope you find it helpful.
Kind regards
JJ