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I do not have an unforgiving attitude. It’s a waste of time, and it makes me the kind of person i don’t want to be. I want to be free of negativity in my life, and that requires me to let go of my negative emotions and feelings towards someone else, no matter how many legitimate reasons I have for those feelings. Wouldn’t you say that you have an unforgiving attitude in general towards women, Indians and Ethiopians? I know that you are open to anyone who comes into your life and holds up to your standards, regardless of their race or gender, but in general, your feelings towards these groups as a whole are instantly negative due to your personal experiences.
SO – I cannot forgive what someone has done to someone else. Why not? Just because there is not a personal offense to you directly, if someone activates your anger, your hatred, your rage, your disgust, your judgment…you are being activated by their behavior. Would you not say there is something to forgive? Forgiving others’ limitations, their incompetence, their short-sidedness, their lack of understanding and awareness, their meanness, their judgments etc. are all things that need to be forgiven as they stir up your own emotions.
Anyway. What’s your take on forgiveness? I view forgiveness as releasing all negative thoughts/feelings/emotions around an event or person…whether direct or indirect. Let’s just take Indians and Ethiopians for example. The way they treat women is something that hurts your heart and makes you angry. Their choices are activating anger in you, right? If you forgive their choices and let go of that anger, then think of how much happier and lighter you will feel? You don’t trust women. You get angry when you believe women are teaming up against men and wanting to blame and shame men. Wouldn’t you say that you could forgive the choice of those women who you believe are wanting to cause harm? To me…as long as there is a negative emotion that gets triggered by someone or something – if I am going to release that hate or judgment or whatever negative feelings I have…I need to forgive that person, that leader, that group, that event in order to move forward with clarity and not be influenced by heavy, negative emotions. I have a specific prayer I say though. It’s about forgiving people or a person for their limitations and then I forgive myself for not getting my needs met – then I hand it over to God and say “you be in charge of the time it takes for them to see their life through eyes of truth so they no longer hurt me or anyone else. And you be in charge of the time it takes for my healing and for me to see myself through your eyes of truth. I release all of this to you.” Basically, in order to hit ALL layers of why we hold onto things, you have to hit the psyche from all angles…the other, the self and whether we like it or not, our egos…which need to feel some level of justice for wrongdoing (hence handing it over to God to take care of and releasing my ego from the need to create justice in some way). It’s an incredibly powerful prayer and when paired with a few other things, I have gone from intense hatred to complete peace in a matter of 20 minutes and have helped others do the same.
I will definitely read the Gottman book. I’m curious to know what it says. But i don’t believe that it is unbiased. This research was run by 2 men by the way. It makes complete sense to me why this was the result of 30 years of scientific research. I think you will have a larger perspective once you read it. I look forward to your thoughts!
Heidi
Hi Marie,
our issues with communication, as in we never talked about how we truly felt towards each other until 4 months in. So before then, we were both guessing and trying to get a reaction from each other by doing things that hurt each other. This is what I call baggage. It’s the stuff you carry with you since birth…all the unprocessed hurt, unhealthy programs, limiting beliefs and programs that come through family and society etc. He recognizes that I’ve been better but he is still so engulfed in all the negativity right now that he can’t look past. This is also baggage. He is not willing to forgive and he is putting a wall up. We all have walls in effort to protect ourselves from getting hurt. If we all processed and forgave ALL the hurt in our lives, we wouldn’t need walls, right? Our walls are full of fear, lies, wounds, negative stories….all baggage. Does this make more sense about what I mean by baggage?
I’m going to say something you will not like, but it’s the truth. If he loses feelings for you so quickly, he wasn’t that invested in the first place. How about you put that fear aside and focus on what REALLY matters…becoming a better partner – and you do it for yourself and not for him. You do it for the next person you are in a relationship with – whether it’s him or someone else.
It’s important for you to trust in yourself…that even if you both go separate ways, you will be okay. You will figure out how to move on and continue learning and growing into a better partner. You will love again. This is one of the best ways to counteract fear…remind yourself that if that fear came true…you have the strength to handle it and move through it.
I think the first thing to focus on is your friendship and strengthening that part. It will naturally bring you guys closer to together. No relationship talk – just like how you were together yesterday. Laugh together, send funny videos, compliment him every once in a while…strengthen your friendship and connection that way and create a safe space for him to connect with you without feeling the pressure of doing something he isn’t ready to do. He seems to be willing to hang out, so use that to your advantage.
Thoughts?
Heidi
Hi Jamie! We can absolutely continue talking here. I’m happy to be your guide as long as you are a member here. You know how to contact me if you feel like you would like more personal/deeper insights into your situation. Just let me know.
So let’s continue here for now. There is a question that I always ask that can help get you moving in a better direction. The goal here is to be able to be your own source of happiness, value, strength, truth and power, instead of looking for those things from him. So…what are you wanting him to do for you, that you are not doing for yourself? This is probably one of the most powerful AND frustrating questions to ask yourself, because it holds you 100% accountable to your reactions, feelings, programs etc. It makes you do the REAL work instead of putting it on someone else. Whenever I am in an argument or hurt by someone, this is ALWAYS the question I am asking myself, so I can come back to my own power and shift the attention to me…which empowers me to shift how I am feeling instead of relying on the other person. It’s one of the MOST IMPORTANT skills you can develop. Without this skill and this kind of mindset, you will fall apart in relationship and lose yourself.
Thoughts?
Heidi
Hi Melissa,
Welcome! Good for you for taking a step and trying something new by being here. You obviously care very much and are willing to learn and grow. This is quite a story. It broke my heart. I wish love were enough and that it could fix things. I know you have that feeling that you are 100% meant to be together. As we break everything down and start to formulate a plan, keep in mind that NOTHING is 100%…ever…especially when it comes to love. That connection and knowing is so darn powerful, but it cannot make him become a better partner. It cannot make him learn how to communicate better. It cannot make him face himself. So no matter how much work YOU do…if he isn’t willing to do the same and really commit to healing and actively doing things to become a better partner, then you have a guy who isn’t willing to fight for himself…which in turn means he isn’t willing to fight for you and the relationship.
Okay…let’s break this down a little further and see if we come up with a way to create a connection again. Can you tell me HOW you have struggled with communication? Being that you were married to a narcissist, you probably just didn’t communicate at all, as it’s pointless. So have you struggled with just saying something in the first place? Do you struggle with HOW you say things? Do you struggle with what to say? Maybe all of the above?
What would you say the biggest struggle is between the both of you? Just from how you explained this, both of you are pointing the finger at each other and it just goes round and round with neither of you stopping that cycle. Is this how it typically goes?
What has happened in the past few months that you guys are arguing more?
Here is a short article to give you some perspective as well: https://www.gottman.com/blog/managing-conflict-through-friendship/
Looking forward to hearing back from you!
Heidi
I’m just going to create closure for this thread since we are conversing in the other one you created.
there’s no way, i’m going to forgive EITHER of them! Let’s talk about forgiveness then. What is your definition of forgiveness? Since you seem to not be willing to forgive everybody and everything, then what qualifies as worth forgiving?
everything you’ve stated – of women being incredible leaders and men being really good at relationships are the exception, not the rule. My experience is this is actually more common now. I personally would no longer say it was the exception. It’s not the norm quite yet, but I feel like it’s getting closer than it ever has been.
Is this really true? i would need every nitty gritty detail on this before i give it any weight. https://www.gottman.com/product/the-mans-guide-to-women/
i’m starting to sound like a lot of successful people who keep saying they couldn’t have gotten to where they’re at without a coach! lol 🙂 What a beautiful story! I love that you got to have this experience and I love your friend’s reaction! You have come a long way Vino and you have a lot to share. You have an internal strength that you have had to fight to develop and I know many people need help with this part of their lives. So many people are wanting more in their lives and have no clue how to do it. Having a coach to help with different parts of your life will take you sooooo much farther than doing things on your own. That’s why I will always have my team of coaches who work with me in different areas of my life and to take me much deeper than I could ever do on my own. I love that you had this experience!
Heidi
It’s hard to say what is best right now, because I don’t know or understand all the dynamics between you guys. It’s really just an experiment at this point.
First thing is, creating a different relationship with him is not just understanding about him more, but understanding and healing your own wounds. When you actually do healing work, you change on the inside. You become more solid and a lot less reactive. So you may know that your passive aggressive tendencies are harmful, but it doesn’t mean you actually change those tendencies, just because you are aware of them. I used to be incredibly passive aggressive with my college boyfriend. I was very aware of it, but I had soooo much baggage, that I did it anyways. It took me seeing a therapist and really diving deep into my baggage and releasing a ton of junk, before I had any control over it.
Neither of you have done any kind of healing work, so the reality is, your relationship isn’t going to change much. You may be able to control your behavior for a period of time, but eventually your wounds (baggage) will leak back out again and you both will just continue to hurt each other. So if you TRULY are interested in changing, then you begin your path of healing. You educate yourself about what is sourcing your behaviors (basically opening up your baggage and seeing what is inside) and then working with someone to help you release bits at a time. Here are a few books you may resonate with: http://thefordinstitute.com/love-beyond-belief
https://www.michaelaboehm.com/the-book/There are a gazillion more books if these don’t interest you, so let me know.
I would suggest giving it a rest. I would suggest limited to no contact and then after doing some soul searching and learning about yourself, you can text him something like “Hey…I’ve been reading this book and I learned about why I am so passive-aggressive. I’ve never like this about myself, but I finally understand what is happening and now I can work on changing it. I am so so sorry that you had to be on the receiving end of my wounds. You never deserved to be treated that way. I just wanted you to know that.”
Thoughts?
Heidi
What do you think dating authentically actually means?
I think for you, and the place you are at, dating someone who is also dating other people, would not be healthy for you. You already have trouble knowing who you are and your value, separate from him. So when he is giving other women attention, when he is not available for you because he is out with someone else, when he cuts things off with you because he has found a woman he wants to settle down with…all of these things would be incredibly triggering for you. In order to be casual in a healthy way, BOTH people need to feel casual about each other. His feelings for you are casual. He is not attached to you in a strong way like you are attached to him, and therein lies the problem. You want to stay connected in hopes that he might change his mind, so yes…you ARE de-valuing yourself this way. You are willing to take breadcrumbs when that is not what you actually want. Does this make sense?
Heidi
Oh how funny that you found my site! I grew up with a narcissistic father and dated a ton of them! LOL. I also have narcissistic tendencies, so I’m highly aware of the textures and dynamics that are involved.
Thank goodness I grew up in the dating world BEFORE online dating. I got to know what it felt like to organically meet people and all that is required. Online dating is a whole different game and takes some serious self-esteem and skills.
I keep pointing you back to yourself and you keep coming back with wanting to use him to make you feel better.
So let me ask you this. Would you rather keep trying to fill that hole with this guy or would you like to actually heal the hole so you no longer depend on someone else to do it for you?
The 12 word text is just about asking him to help you with something…whatever you pick. The words don’t matter, it’s just about the concept. So you text saying something to the effect of, “I need your help with something.” Then when/if he texts you back, you let him know what you need help with. It could be anything from needing help moving something or asking for advice about something. It’s just a way to activate the natural instance in a man to want to help a woman. It can create an opportunity to connect and then you take it from there.
Heidi
reaching out with a lighthearted text in a month or so and seeing what happens? What are your thoughts on that? I am just not ready to move on from this completely right now, but willing to set it aside. I think it is a really good time for you to truly start to focus on yourself. How about not making any decisions right now except to work on your healing and connecting more deeply to what is happening for you and the hurt you feel.
I understand that you want to talk and connect with him again. It will make the hurt much less. But what if you could heal the hurt all on your own and you didn’t need him to do that for you? What if you could feel happy and complete, without him?
You guys have been together for a long time. It’s very easy to get comfortable and to know yourself through that other person. He has changed though. And he is triggering you all over the place and instead of taking responsibility for your own triggers, you are letting loose on him. This is not a healthy dynamic and nor is his “stringing you along” approach either. There is an underlying lack of respect between you guys. First and foremost, that needs to be healed – but within you first.
Here are some questions to think about. A basic, foundational principle about relationships is they are mirrors to us. So he is a mirror to you, reflecting to you different sides/angles to yourself. If he is “stringing you along” then that is reflective of an energy you carry within yourself. We teach others to treat us the same way we treat ourselves. So where in your life do you not commit to yourself? Where do you tend to not value or respect yourself? Where do you tend to be wishy washy with yourself? This is just a place to start.
The thing is, you want him back, only to continue the same cycle. The only way to do that, is for you to do some healing and strengthen your relationship with yourself first and foremost, so that you hold a different standard as to how you are treated.
Does this make sense?
Heidi
Hi Marie,
Thank you for sharing this. I know how incredibly hard it can be to have such a strong connection and yet have such a volatile relationship. My relationship in college was that way. We were sooooo incredibly toxic and beautiful together at the same time. We broke up several times during our 3 years together. We so intensely loved each other and would keep coming back to each other, but we just couldn’t keep the peace.
Reality is, a relationship like yours doesn’t last. When there is that much arguing and betrayal, especially in such a short amount of time, it’s a sign of how much baggage you are both bringing into the relationship. Love and connection is far less powerful than the baggage that is in this relationship.
The very best thing you can do is to really look at how he is triggering you and your passive aggressive tendencies. He doesn’t want to keep fighting with you – and that is probably the healthiest choice he can make for himself. You are not healthy for him. He is not healthy for you. You trigger each other and neither of you are handling it in a healthy, respectful way.
You want him back? It wouldn’t be about trying to convince him, but instead, create a different relationship with him. It’s time for you to really face all the baggage you are carrying around. Is that something you are willing to do? He doesn’t want to step back into the same old patterns of divisiveness. Are you willing to look at how you are contributing to this and changing how you handle things?
Do you think he would be willing to do the same?Heidi
I just wanted to add, how do you balance giving space and not being forgotten? Let’s really look at this question. It identifies where you are giving your power away.
Someone who values themselves from the inside, would not be asking this question. You are putting your value in HIS hands. You don’t want to be forgotten by HIM. Instead, someone with a higher amount of self-love would say “It doesn’t matter whether he forgets me or not. I am valuable regardless.”
So really, there is no balance to create. It’s about turning your focus inward…onto yourself instead of onto him, to make you feel better. You are wanting HIM to do for you what you are not willing to do for yourself…which is find you valuable. So if he is making you valuable, you don’t feel valuable. If he remembers you, then you are valuable. If he forgets you, then you are not valuable. Do you see how this is giving away your power to him?
I really do struggle to see my value. I understand. I’ve been there. We all have been there. No matter how internally strong and healthy you become, you will still have moments where you struggle to see your value. So let’s talk about this more. How come you struggle with this? What is in the way of you knowing how truly great and loveable and wonderful you are?
Heidi
Whether people agree with it or not, there ARE things that are 100% TRUE! I agree! I misunderstood what you were saying before, so now it makes more sense what you meant.
They DO slow me down. They DO hurt. Sometimes i try to find out why i’m feeling it again. Most times, i’m too tired, and i just cry. I totally get this space. Sometimes crying is all that even needs to happen to just keep the emotions flowing somewhere. The truth eventually shows up when you are ready to receive it.
SO – i don’t support women standing together against men. Let’s just go back to some foundational concepts here. There are a gazillion women who have been harmed and manipulated by men. There are a gazillion men who have been harmed and manipulated by women. So…since you seem to be more forgiving towards men in general, are you willing to forgive the women who behave in a harmful way as well? Are you willing to maybe take the energy and passion you have to “defend the people being attacked” and instead defend the energy? By that I mean, instead of defending men, what about defending against the victim mentality or defending against the energy of attacking or defending against the energy of judgment or defending against the energy of divisiveness. If you are defending a specific energy and fighting to uphold a certain standard as to how we treat each other, then you are not just defending men or the “weak,” you are speaking up against an energy that is harmful, no matter male, female, child etc. You instead place your attention on ALL people, no matter the race, gender, age etc. and you counteract divisive, harmful energies with the truth and higher vibrational actions and words. Is this something you are willing to do? Or are you just wanting to continue to paint negative pictures of women, Indians and Ethiopians? Every trait that you struggle with in these groups of people exists in ALL of us in some variation, right?
I Don’t know WHAT to call this kind of mindset! It’s so bloody brilliant, but it also keeps her forever in a situation of collecting handouts. I guess it works for her, so it’s all good, right? There are definitely consequences to living at this vibration and mentality. It makes me so sad. I understand she is just figuring out her own way of surviving. She will never get to feel the truest beauty of a flower, or the brilliance of the sun, or the power of her breath. She functions at such low vibrations that she misses so much. But I suppose this is where ignorance is bliss, right? She has no idea what she is missing out on.
Men and women lead in different ways and in different areas. RELATIONSHIPS are where women lead. So when relationships go belly up, the woman is most responsible. Because women KNOW stuff! Men lead in the world that requires performance and precision and focused goals. I know PLENTY of women who are incredible in performance, precision and focused goals and plenty of men who are incredible in leading relationships. Just FYI, when a relationship goes belly up, science shows that men are mostly the ones responsible. Regardless, these qualities you mention are much more based on personality types and NOT gender. You are pigeonholing both men and women by making these generalized sweeping statements. We ALL have both male and female energy in us, right? So the male energy that is about performance and precision can easily exist in a woman. And the female energy that is about relationships can exist in a man. There are industry leaders, both male and female, that coach about business/performance as well as dating/relationships. Do you see something different?
Patriarchy is like the skeletal system of the society. Matriarchy is like the muscular system. They both provide form and movement AND protection for vital organs So beautifully said! You are such a great teacher! Me, being a trainer, I appreciate this analogy a lot! I love it!
Heidi
Of course you wish it could be him. You’ve had a few great experiences with him and you want that to continue.
Here is the truth. You actually don’t know that he is THAT great. You guys have had a few great dates, but you have NO CLUE what he is like when he is angry or hurt. You have no clue what his dark side looks like and feels like. You have no clue if you guys have enough in common to create a really great life together. All of those things get exposed over time. You are taking a few fun dates and turning him into this “perfect guy” for you and a guy you really want to invest with and you barely know him.
Again…if you had every single guy treating you super well and this was your norm…I wonder if there would be anything special about this guy. This is obviously not a question you can answer. My point is, I’m guessing that you are wanting to really attach to this guy because you were in a desert for sooooooo long being married to a narcissist. This guy feels like a rainforest to you in comparison. That difference, in and of itself, would make most women want to attach and be in the rainforest because it feels so dam good. This is not the truth though. It FEELS very real and it FEELS amazing, but it’s far from the true picture of who he really is.
Your heart is sacred. Your body is sacred. Any man who comes into your life needs to EARN the right to experience you. You are just handing over all of you, right away, without having any idea of who this guy REALLY is. This tells me you are not quite in the place yet of TRULY knowing your own value. Someone who knows their value, is able to enjoy a new person, but also watching and observing the person, to see if they are a good/healthy fit for them. Does this make sense?
Thoughts?
Heidi
Hi Jamie! We are glad you are here. Thank you for sharing your story with us. Let’s see if we can unpack what is happening for you. It sounds like you go really attached to him quite quickly. Having been married to a narcissist for so long, it’s no surprise you attached yourself to a guy who treated you incredibly well, even if it was only for a few dates. What if…EVERY SINGLE guy treated you like this. What is how he treated you was your “normal.” You wouldn’t be as smitten and you wouldn’t have attached so easily and you would be able to keep a more grounded perspective about who he is.
He has some very specific needs that unfortunately do not line up with you and your life. He is being very kind by being honest right from the beginning about his needs and he is honoring himself, and you, by keeping it casual. My suggestion is to take this wonderful experience and make it your new standard. Do not accept being treated anything less than what this guy did for you. He gave you some great experiences and now you know it’s possible. Let him be your teacher instead of attaching yourself to him being “the one” and let this guy go.
Thoughts on this?
Heidi
