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Hi Alice,
So good to hear from you again and get an update. Thank you for sharing all of this!
First, I see you looping around and around in your mind about A and why he is doing what he is doing. It doesn’t matter anymore. Your energy is focusing on something that is over and closed instead of truly disconnecting from him. What you are doing is another form of addiction in the process of letting go of someone. And yes, disconnecting from that “drug” is so similar to what addicts go through. There have actually been studies on comparing breakups and drug addictions. So every time you start trying to “figure out” what he is doing and why and what and how etc. stop yourself and say “It’s over. I want more from my partner. It’s over.” Make sense?
As far as R goes, you are falling back into the same pattern with him as you did before. And you are even considering going back to him, knowing he is not healthy for you nor what you want. How about doing something different this time? How about you rescue yourself instead of him? How about you be okay with him being depressed and angry and let him just have his life that way? How about you turn your focus towards yourself? These guys cannot offer you what you want, so it’s time for you to start filling that void they left, in a healthy way. Turn your focus 100% on yourself, close the door on both of these men and say goodbye. Love yourself enough to fight for a love that nourishes you, excites you, is full of passion and romance and growth together. Fight for that! You deserve to have that experience!
Heidi
Thoughts?You are asking some really great questions! There are a lot of layers in the answers, so let’s keep this dialogue going as you discover yourself.
The thing is, with 3-4 relationships in the past also destroyed because of my trust issue, I kind of want to try another different route Tell me more about this. How do you feel your trust issues ruined the relationships? Are you saying that if you didn’t have trust issues, you would still be with any one of those guys?
Maybe I should also try to have open relationship because it seems that my wishes for monogamy only resulted in ‘suffocation’, breaking up, abandonment issue, etc. This is NOT a reason to try open relationships. Dealing with one person is plenty of work in and of itself. Dealing with multiple people is a whole different animal. I’m not against them at all, but open relationships, done in a healthy and respectful manner, requires that you, first and foremost are SUPER solid in yourself, are willing to face your fears, your low self-esteem, your insecurities etc. If you are not willing to really dive deep into those aspects of yourself, open relationships can be quite harmful and cause even more low self-esteem and problems. With what you are dealing with, I would say this is not the best path for you. I want to encourage you to face your trust issues first, shift your belief and experiences about love and THEN if open relationships sound interesting to you, then go for it. Your wishes for monogamy can absolutely happen for you. So let’s look at what’s happening in your experiences. How do your trust issues sabotage connection? Give specific examples? What have your past boyfriends said to you about it?
I don’t know what I should held up as ideals of relationships. Do you think there is a line, or boundary? You get to create whatever kind of relationship you want. Yes there are boundaries, but those limits are different for each person. Obviously,r there are foundational boundaries across the board like no verbal or physical abuse or no active addictions etc. But the rest is open for interpretation. There is a lot of research on what makes a relationship successful though. Here is a very simple article from the Gottman Institute. They have researched love and relationships for over 30 years and have some incredible information! Sign up on their email list and start learning from them. https://www.gottman.com/blog/red-flag-green-flag-what-to-look-for-when-youre-dating/ I also recommend their book “A Man’s Guide to Women.” Even though it’s written for men, it is a really powerful book for women as well. It’s a short and simple read packed full of information about the most powerful ways for men to support women. I actually learned a lot about myself in that book.
Do you feel like you deserve to be treated like a queen? Can you imagine a guy being head over heels in love with you and wanting to spend his whole life with you? Can you imagine laughing a lot and having a guy deeply in love with you and vice versa? Do you KNOW that is possible for you?
Heidi
What are you going to try? What is your specific plan? We would love to know so we can support you. Keep us updated too. Let us know what happens and we can keep guiding you through this phase.
I’m curious…does this approach make sense to you? or are you doing it just because that’s what we said?
Heidi
Did you end up going to Liam’s? How did it go?
You are definitely getting warmer with Dan about what his challenges are. He is a really good person for you to practice with actually. It’s a skill reading people and then figuring out how to bring the best out in them. It’s a very creative process and something I wish EVERYBODY would do with each other. I practiced this ALL THE TIME in my younger years, whether I was dating a guy or not. I always turned it into some kind of game for myself to see if I could shift the dynamics. You may not be interested in that, but Dan is a good way to build your skillset for when you are in a relationship. You are a powerful person. Why not be intentional about it with him? I’m happy to give you some ideas. Just a thought.
So you have felt over a 5 a few times, but with men who were not really available for you. Do you deeply, truly believe that’s possible?
Do you have a side to you that can yell and just be outwardly angry and unleash that energy? In a healthy way of course. I know personally, I am quite uncomfortable with that side of myself. This past year I have been getting to know her more.
Let’s see if we can break this down further.
Would you be willing to go ask your friends their view of your relationship? You said they see you as co-dependent, so ask them what they mean by that. Ask for specific examples. Ask about other things they see as well….what kinds of things work and what they see doesn’t work very well. Of course they have a limited viewpoint, but it’s ALWAYS good to get perspective.
ever since the first break up I’ve kept some reservations on my thoughts as well. Afraid that he might leave me again like this time round.. When you function from a place of fear, that changes all the dynamics. If you play smaller because you are afraid of losing him, you are instead losing yourself. You are making him more important than yourself and that’s where things can really start to head south. You deserve to be known and heard on ALL levels. If you lose him because of it, he is not the right match for you anyways. You have to be willing to love yourself and value yourself more than the connection with him. Thoughts on this?
You say you are co-dependent in the sense that you are available for him anytime he needs you and that’s your choice as a contributing factor to the relationship. I don’t know the details, so I’m going to invite you to check this on a deeper level within yourself. It’s a great rationalization to say it’s your contribution to be accommodating. I’m wondering if the deeper truth is, you are afraid to not accommodate him for fear of losing him or fear of losing connection. I’m wondering if this is a pattern you have whenever you are a girlfriend. I’m wondering if you are so accommodating to him as a way of overfunctioning to make up for how much he doesn’t accommodate you. I’m wondering if it’s how you are trying to get him to love you. It’s important to really look at our patterns/behaviors that create an imbalance energetically. If there is a consistent imbalance, then there is something to explore about it and most likely, there are deep, unconscious beliefs/fears/insecurities that are actually running the show. So I want to invite you to explore this deeper. Were you accommodating to your parents growing up? Your siblings? Your friends? Let us know what you discover!
He said he doesn’t feel motivated in the relationship. Not Motivated in wanting to make things work. I know this may be hard to hear, but honestly…it might be time to step away. If he isn’t motivated to care for you and the relationship in a way that makes things work and makes you feel valued, then that’s on him. Who knows what the reasons are…only he can determine that. All you need to know is that you are in a relationship that isn’t working. You don’t have a partner putting in the effort to properly take care of the connection. You deserve more than that. You deserve to have a guy who sees you in his life and loves to have you in life. You deserve to have a guy who thinks about you while he is going through his day and is excited to see you when he gets home. You deserve to have a guy who has NOTHING stopping him from wanting to spend his life with you. You deserve to have a guy who treats you like his queen. This guy just isn’t there. He has broken up 2x now with now real reason. Are you sure you want to go another round with him?
Heidi
You would say those things in a quiet voice??? You are also are being quite “sweet.” Don’t you want to yell and tell her what horrible mother she was? The way you are talking is very adult like and the point is to access those uncontrolled, deeply authentic (holding nothing back) feelings and words and express them to your mom. So try again. Journal in a way that isn’t so perfect and polite and if you can’t access that part of you, then it lets you know how shut down you really are. Also, how you are trying to cope with the voice is discounting and ignoring it: When her words come to mind I just tell that voice that I’m not buying that message, that it isn’t true and move on to thinking something else. You’ve been soooo beaten down, it’s crucial for you to fill yourself up with the truth. Saying it isn’t true is the first part of the equation, but then saying what IS true is the second part of the equation. You don’t want to ignore the feelings, you want to acknowledge and valide the feelings and then fill yourself up with the truth. You want to WORK WITH the feelings instead of trying to just shove them aside and move on. In essence, that is a level of ignoring yourself. The truth always needs to replace a lie. Our psyche will not let go of something unless there is something to replace it so when you are beating yourself up or hear that negative mom voice, you say “I’m so sorry you are hurting right now. It’s so hard to feel rejected and it hurts. I just want you to know that I LOVE YOU. Even if this other person doesn’t appreciate you, I appreciate you and I will always be here for you. In my eyes, I wouldn’t change a thing. I love you for exactly who you are. You are strong, resilient, beautiful, funny and I love being around you. We will get through this together. You are not alone.” Those are the kinds of truths you want to instill instead of trying to focus on the “other” by saying “it’s their problem, not yours.” Does this make sense?
As far as what ours and other programs say, it’s important to look deeper and beyond the marketing. Look at the concepts. Everything that is taught here is about developing self-confidence, learning the language of men and learning how us ladies can behave in certain ways that create barriers to connection with men…and anyone else for that matter. It’s not about the specific behaviors, but more deeply about the concepts, right? For example, neediness acts as a barrier to connection, right? What is neediness? It’s insecurity. So looking at where you are giving your power away to a man is an important aspect to look at within yourself. I know the marketing and presentation doesn’t really say those kinds of things, but speaking from the inside perspective of this program, it’s much deeper. The whole intent is to empower women and help them more deeply connect to their amazingness and then bring that confidence and self-esteem into the picture with a man. Does it guarantee success? Nope…there is no such thing.
As far as Dan, I know you don’t know the details of his behaviors, but I’m asking you to do a read on him. It’s part of developing your dating skillset. The more you can understand human behavior, the easier it will be to pick up on, even the slightest hint, of feelings, patterns, beliefs etc. on a date. His behavior DOES serve him somehow. I know from your perspective, you don’t see it, but the point is to step into his shoes. How do you think being a drama queen might help him in his life? Your limiting patterns serve you too. How do you think it serves you to be controlling? Make sense? Just make some educated guesses as to why he might be a drama queen in the first place. What might you guess hi upbringing was like?
That cracks me up that 5 feels high for you. Interesting. Have you never felt higher than that? What’s the highest number you have felt? What happened with that person?
What do you need courage for to go to Liam’s? You are not interested, so what do you feel nervous about?
Heidi
Hi Rhonda,
Welcome! Thank you for sharing your challenge. It’s sooooo so hard to disconnect from someone we really like. Your concerns are valid and should be paid attention to. If he didn’t drink or drank a lot less, then would you feel differently?
I’m curious, do you just not know what to say or how to do it? What is stopping you from just saying how you feel?
You can be super simple and just say “I don’t feel how I want to feel in order to keep moving forward with you.” Or you can say, “I just don’t see myself being with you long term.”
You have to accept that you will lose him as a friend….at least at first. Eventually you guys might swing back around and become friends after time has passed.
Thoughts?
Heidi
Hi Chantelle,
Thank you for sharing more details. What Spyce and I keep trying to warn you about is the speed at which you are moving. Saying things like:
He can do no wrong in my eyes. If space is what he needs then so be it I will be his friend until he realizes what he can have with me. I don’t care how long it takes. is literally jumping off a cliff and not knowing what’s at the bottom. Are you saying that if he hits you, calls you names when he’s angry or completely disconnects and stops talking to you if he gets upset, that you will accept those behaviors in your life?Everything you listed that you THINK you know about him comes from what he has shared with you. That’s all very important, but the 2nd half of all of that is making sure that it’s all true. You want to SEE that all his words line up with his actions. You have had 2 failed marriages so far and you said you want to get it right this time. Your mindset about this guy is NOT leading you down a path to success. You are letting your feelings dictate the entire process and FEELINGS ARE NOT FACTS. I know you have felt “next level” with him. I know EXACTLY what that feels like. I will also tell you that just because he is making feel things you have never felt before, DOES NOT MEAN he deserves your heart out the gate. You have no idea what he is like when he is angry or hurt. You have no idea how he treats people when he stressed out. You have no idea what he is like as a father. You have no idea what he is like when you deeply hurt him, what his belief about love is, what his fears are, how he handles those fears and whether or not he even has the courage to face them. Does he have a victim mentality when people wrong him? How much does he REALLY love and care for himself? You won’t know that until you actually see him handle situations where he has really messed up and hurt someone.
The thing is, you don’t know someone until you have SEEN them and EXPERIENCED them in all kinds of situations. And FYI, it’s not the best parts that determine the success of a relationship, it’s the worst parts. How you both treat each other in the most painful, hurtful moments, is what will determine how successful you are as a couple. So when getting to know someone, the beginning feels amazing, but hardly tells the whole story of someone. That’s why it’s called the honeymoon phase. When shit hits the fan…then you start to learn the deeper layers that exist and many, many times, you will discover there are non-negotiables. Here is a super short/general article to help give you some things to pay attention to: https://www.gottman.com/blog/red-flag-green-flag-what-to-look-for-when-youre-dating/?utm_source=Blog&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=RSS
In the beginning, the chemical cocktail is literally like a drug. It’s crazy strong and it’s very natural for our minds to create a story around those feelings we are having. You cannot control how you feel and why would you want to? It feels so dam good! But what you CAN control is the story you have about those feelings. Whenever I have felt “next level” with someone, I work extra hard to keep myself also grounded in the truth. The truth being that I don’t really know this person and what I am feeling about him is MOSTLY influenced by chemicals being released in my body and the story I tell myself about those chemicals. It’s definitely fun and feels amazing, so instead of fighting the feelings, I just let them ride out and let him SHOW me OVER TIME, that he is deserving of my very very sacred heart, through his words and actions. So as much as I may want to jump head over heals for a guy, I don’t let myself because those feelings don’t have enough substance or proof to them.
Okay…we have said all we can really say to warn you to slow down. You will do with it what you will.
So let’s now focus on what you can do in this situation. I’m a little confused. You said you backed off and gave him space but you also said: I try to initiate contact a few times a day where as he would maybe initiate contact every second or third day. So which is it? Initiating contact this much is NOT giving him space. If you completely step back and DO NOT initiate any contact and leave it up to him, you will see what his REAL feelings are for you. It’s obvious he does not view you the same way you view him. You have come on VERY strong, so it’s pretty normal for a guy to step back and invest less when a girl comes on strong. So by stepping back and letting him be the one to initiate 100%, it can start to help him feel more safe with you. I think at this point, there is nothing to be said to get his attention because the issue is most likely more about him trying to slow things down. So you want to join HIS energy instead of trying to force or coerce him to join you. Does this make sense? Is this something you are willing to try? There is a lot to learn and this is a creative process, so let’s see if you stepping back and letting him take the lead 100% will bring him closer. That means no initiating anything. Let him do all of it for a bit. If it feels like you can’t do that, then maybe consider cutting back 50%. So maybe initiate once and then let him initiate once and take turns. The goal is just to step back and let him lead you more. Let him show you who he is.
Also, I still want to encourage you to do a little recon. Since he said he isn’t on the dating app anymore, why not check? See if he is telling the truth? Google him and see what comes up? See if there is a way to find out if he is single.
Thoughts?
Heidi
First, it’s important to understand that he may not know what is happening. All he knows is how he feels, but why he feels what he is, may be a mystery to him, so don’t have too high of expectations about getting some answers from him that will help resolve what is happening. Second, he may not WANT to open to you. That’s okay. All you can do is show up, provide a safe space for him to open up and the rest is up to him. It’s like the saying…you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. Third, is to learn HOW to create a safe space for him to open up.
One way that typically works for any confrontation or difficult topic is to create a space of curiosity. If you imagine you are a reporter writing an article about him and his feelings, you then open yourself up to being a researcher…which is the energy of curiosity. So let’s just start with this…make a list of 8 different questions you could ask him and post them here.
Heidi
Thank you for sharing more info.
I’m sorry to say this, but he is just not that into you. You are the one driving the relationship here and most men don’t respond nor respect that very much. You barely know this guy and yet you are ready to be SUPER serious with him and you said you are “madly in love” with him. I guarantee that is waaaaaaay to fast for this guy….for most guys actually. People like to EARN love. It makes it feel more real.
So my guess is, he likes you, but how intensely you feel for him is causing him to be cautious and slow things down….and rightly so.
If you are willing, would you be open to talking about your feelings for him and why you are moving so fast? Is this a pattern of yours? Do you tend to fall hard, fast? How old are you both?
The first way to start to turn this around is to stop texting him and let him take the lead. If he wants to talk to you, he will reach out. This is important for 2 reasons. First, it gives him some breathing room and it gives you a chance to see what the connection actually would feel like at HIS speed, not yours. That’s important to know. Second, it also gives him a chance to chase you. This is REALLY important for most men…in a healthy way. If you are available all the time for him (especially in the beginning) he doesn’t have to really work for you. Most guys instinctively like to chase a bit. Make sense?
Lastly, there is a BIG RED flag that he isn’t interested in you visiting him. I’m wondering if he is already taken. This may also be a reason he isn’t as responsive with you. It’s sad to say, but a poll that came out about a year ago found that somewhere around 50% of people on Tinder were already in serious relationships. I know that may not be the app you met each other on, but it’s a common thing these days. There are a lot of reasons why this is happening. Regardless, it’s REALLY important to always google the person and gather as much info as you can and to also verify they are single. Whenever I am on a dating app, I become a member of a site where I can get background checks on people before I meet up with them. I have come across sex offenders, restraining orders etc. and I’m always so thankful for finding out first thing. Point being, you are ready to jump in with this guy and you barely know him. So find out more before you start pursuing him.
Heidi
I also feel like it’s my fault that his hurting I mean if I didn’t do it there wouldn’t be any hurt but do I deserve to be punished I don’t think so breaking my integrity is already enough punishment. We ALL make mistakes, we lie, we break our integrity, we hurt the ones we love very deeply. It’s inevitable and will ALWAYS be true. The measure of a good partner is how well they are able to accept our humanness, forgive and work through the challenges. Again, it doesn’t mean they stay with us, but we do want to have a partner is more interested in letting go of the hurt instead of holding onto it…no matter what the end result is. It’s not his right to punish you. There are consequences to your choices of course, but if he, or you for that matter, hold onto these negative feelings in order to punish, teach a lesson, hurt or whatever…then that’s where the disconnect will continue to be sourced from.
So it sounds like you need to develop a much stronger skillset to handle stress. That is the gift in all of this. Talking to him, listening to music or dance are NOT strong enough skills to handle the worst moments of life effectively. It’s not working for you because you because those are not healing skills. Those things manage your emotions, they don’t actually heal anything. So let’s build your toolbox a bit. How do you feel about journaling? Here is another resource: https://www.qoya.love/ Here is a book: https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Light-Chasers-Reclaiming/dp/1594485259/ref=asc_df_1594485259?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80539280274815&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584138866829365&psc=1 Here is another person to learn from. Her book is FABULOUS and has all kind of skills of how to handle stress at the end: https://www.michaelaboehm.com/the-book/ This is a very powerful technique as well: https://eftuniverse.com/
There are a TON of people out there, sharing ways to move through the most difficult moment’s in life. Yes, it’s great to use your guy to talk to, but more importantly, when he is not available you need to know how to work through your own stuff. If all you ever do is rely on sources outside of you, you are going to be one miserable person and you will never learn how to source yourself. This situation can really help you connect more deeply to yourself if you want to.
Thoughts?
Heidi
I’d come home feeling bad from the way the kids had treated me and my mom would tell me it was my fault. So it’s your mom’s voice that contributes to you thinking that you must be doing something wrong if you are still single. How about you journal about that. What if you wrote that statement as if you were mom and then reply to that statement as you. Have a conversation back and forth between your mom’s energy and you. Get it all out. Say everything she would say and then respond to it. See where the conversation takes you!
5 doesn’t sound like it’s much of an attraction. Do you feel it is a 5 because you think he isn’t interested in you? Do you think it would go up if he showed interest?
Gosh, I sure hope that guy comes through with a job offer. That would be great wouldn’t it?
As far as Dan is concerned, why do you think he behaves that way? What do you think he is deeply needing? We all behave in certain ways because it serves us somehow. How do you think it is helping his life by being the “drama queen?”
It’s actually not hard to stay in bed. I was worried about that too before I had these surgeries, as I’m a very active person. But after surgery, I wanted to stay in bed. I didn’t have the energy to move much. It felt comforting and peaceful more than anything. It’s different than an injury like you had. Those are easy to try and push through, but when your belly gets cut open, there’s no moving past that discomfort. I’m curious, why do you think you ignored your body the way you did and didn’t respect/honor the healing it needed?
Heidi
Hi Anna,
I’m glad you found your FWB guy. It sounds like you are really clear about that.
As far as Ricky, you are doing what feels comfortable for you. You know you would end up really attaching yourself to him, so it’s best to stay out of the FWB zone. Who knows, you may end up liking Paul more than you think. You are going to get to know Paul in a different way now. I have a lot of experience with FWB situations and I’ll tell ya…I was surprised sometimes by the feelings that would pop up for me. It’s important for you to really listen to those and don’t be dismissive to any of yours or his feelings as you guys create this situation.
Keep getting to know Ricky slowly and keep letting him take the lead. Having Paul may take some of the pressure off of Ricky needing to be something specific in your life. We shall see!
Heidi
Hi Chantelle,
Welcome! Thank you for sharing your story! I just have a few questions.
So you basically have known this guy for a few months, correct? Are you moving to his area because of him or were those plans in motion before you met him? How much do you initiate contact with him compared to him initiating contact? Are you able to go to his area and visit him? What kind of sick is he? Like a serious illness or like a flu/cold kind of thing? Is he still active on that dating app? Did you happen to share your VERY strong feelings for him?
Heidi
Thank you for sharing more of your story.
It’s great that you recognize what lead to you breaking your integrity. Now the next step is 1. work on forgiving yourself and 2. creating a healthy skill set to handle your low self-esteem moments (you will have them for the rest of your life).
I know you miss that connection and I know you love him. The thing is, whether he is able to truly forgive you or not is about HIS path now and not yours. Mistakes happen. Cheating happens. It IS possible to heal from this, but he has to be willing. If he isn’t, that’s not your fault. It’s HIS choice and to be honest, if he isn’t willing, then it’s better that you know this sooner than later as he may not be the best partner for you. Your choice deserves to be forgiven wholly and completely.
Now…full and complete forgiveness doesn’t mean he will open his heart to you again. Forgiveness doesn’t mean forgetting. It’s about releasing the negative feelings around the person and event. As long as he is still hurting and guarding his heart because of that hurt, he still has some forgiving/healing to do. He could end up truly letting go of the hurt and betrayal, but still may feel like he doesn’t want to open up to you again. If that happens, that’s not about you and instead about him. For right now, it’s important that you don’t keep beating yourself up for HIS hurt and his limitations. Focus on yourself.
What stops you from forgiving yourself? Do you feel you don’t deserve it? Do you feel it’s your fault that he is hurting? Do you feel like you deserve to be punished?
How do you feel about yourself in general? On a scale of 1-10, how much do you like yourself on average? What do you do to help yourself through stressful times?
Heidi
