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Hi Palesa,
I thought I’d check in and see if you had any thoughts about what I said or to see if you had any other questions. Would love to hear back from you!
Heidi
Hi Palesa!
Welcome! You have a really question and there are a lot of layers to work through, as there is no one “correct” answer. The right answer is really about you and your standards, regardless of him. So let’s see if we can find some clarity for your situation.
First, I have A LOT of questions about a guy who is 57 and never having been in love before. Was the mother of his child a one night stand or something? Second, I also have some concerns that he has no idea how to treat a lady who wouldn’t have sex with him. To me, HIS standards are telling you a lot about him. If you put the 2 together, never having been in love and expecting to easily sleep with women – he is set up to have more surface and casual experiences and does NOT know how to have more deep, vulnerable connections with a woman. Even him “warning” you that he once had a woman who turned into a friend due to a lack of sexual interaction is telling me that this guy equates connection with sex and he has no idea how to TRULY access a woman’s heart. That “warning” was a purely male perspective with very LITTLE understanding of the female heart. And while he says he doesn’t want to pressure you, that statement was 100% pressure and he knows it. He’s been at this game a long time and I guarantee he has a lot of tactics up his sleeve to get a woman into bed. And being that you have said no (good job) he gets to have a challenge.
Just from the things you have shared, it’s pretty obvious this guy doesn’t really know how to be intimate with a woman – he is the type to move fast and stay on the surface and there is no mistake in that…it’s very intentional for him. Whatever his reasons are for setting interactions up like that with women, don’t really matter. What DOES matter is that he doesn’t even know how to be with a woman without sex involved and develop the relationship outside of the bedroom. For a guy who is 57, BIG RED FLAG.
I hate to say this, but it’s possible he has a sex addiction. Even though he is not having sex with you, it’s possible he is having sex with other women in the meantime, while still keeping you on the hook. And considering how he relates to women, it does line up with that type of addiction. But who knows. I know for me, I personally would have my boundaries up EXTRA strong until I really understood about what was going on beneath the surface for this guy. My guess is, his interest won’t last much longer considering his pattern. And that has nothing to do with you!
Even that fact that you feel you might have “overshared” because of telling him your typical experiences with me, tells me there is something about this guy that doesn’t make you feel comfortable opening up and being authentic. Sharing something like that is NOT an overshare. It’s normal and pretty typical and it’s not that deep. It’s also possible that you felt you overshared because you are not used to being a little vulnerable too. I don’t know.
So you have to REALLY think about how you want to be treated. What are your standards beyond having no sex? That’s where the true foundation is established for any relationship. It’s been 6 weeks and he hasn’t been asking you out on dates. He has been texting you daily, but is that REALLY how you want to be treated?
Here is an analogy I like to share. Imagine you are the owner and CEO of your company. Your company is your heart…your vulnerabilities, your thoughts, your love, your insecurities, your greatness….ALL of you. And you are looking to hire someone to help you run your company. This person is going to be INTIMATELY involved. It’s a high level position in your company, therefore there are special skills and experience required in order to handle your heart properly. Dating is the interview process. You are interviewing the guy to see if he has the proper skillset. For high level positions in ANY company, they look for certain skillsets, management styles, critical thinking, problem solving skills etc. So if you look at this guy from this perspective, would you say he is qualified for the job? Does he has the skillset, the motivation, the management style, the ability to handle being at a super high level position for your company??
From what you have shared so far, no way. He has never even been in love, so that in and of itself tells me he doesn’t even have the experience. Also, that fact that it’s been 6 weeks and you are wondering how YOU are supposed to proceed, tells me you are not acting like the CEO of your company. Your heart is SACRED. It’s valuable, it’s precious, it’s one of a kind and you are trying to figure out how to move forward with a guy who clearly has no clue how to be with you without sex? Your standards need to go far beyond no sex. Your standards need to align with how you expect to be treated as a person. Your standards to need to just as strong and expectant as if you were a CEO of a company looking to hire someone for a very high level position. So with that in mind, what are your thoughts on this?
Heidi
Hi Sharry! Great question. How about you share some details about your situation, so we can offer more customized guidance.
What is happening in your relationship with him that makes you need to use this? Do you understand why he has disconnected? Why do you feel this 12 word text approach will work? What are you going to ask him for help with?
Heidi
Hi PJ,
Sounds like this guy is quite slippery and I know how confusing that can be. He is saying one thing, but doing another. And while what he says is pretty great, he is not taking ACTION on what he is claiming to feel about you.
Honestly, I want to guide you towards letting this guy go. He doesn’t have integrity in his words. For him to be talking with you about having a LT relationship while not having asked you on a date yet…and for him to ask you out a few times and then not following through…you has already broken trust and safety and the relationship hasn’t even started yet. It makes me wonder the other ways this gets expressed in his life. If it’s actually THIS HARD to even start a relationship, then imagine what it would be like to get him to show up on a consistent basis. If he has panic attacks and anxiety, then that tells you that he has a VERY STRONG relationship with fear. And that fear will absolutely ALWAYS win over love, over showing up, over anything he needs to face. If his fear is THAT strong that he can’t even follow through on showing up for a date with you, then you are going to be more in relationship with his fear, than you are with him. You are truly looking at a VERY HIGH MAINTENANCE relationship with this guy. Imagine what happens when you are annoying him, or upset with him, or you do something that hurts his feelings…do you really thing he is going to be open and honest about his feelings? This guy will most likely bury his feelings until one day, he explodes because he cannot contain all his feelings anymore and you will get blasted with years of pent up feelings. Remember, he can’t even follow through on going on a date with you and you think that he has the skills and ability to handle tough feelings that require communication and confrontation??? I doubt it.
And also, you were NOT juggling 2 guys. This current guy is NOT invested in you. He is staying connected but at a distance, yet you are already investing in him and giving him access to your heart, even to the point of ending things with another guy who I’m guessing was actually showing up in person with you.
Your heart is so sacred and so special Pj. Don’t give it away to a guy who doesn’t have the ability to truly take care of it.
Thoughts on all of this?
Heidi
Hi Janeen!
Thank you for sharing your story and validating Rebecca’s experiences as well. I’m glad you have chosen to get some help with your situation!
Men and women operate sooooo differently in relationships, don’t they? It’s soooooo common for women to come across as “needy” and men to come across as “avoiding” and while those are true, to me it is a reflection of our core, instinctive nature. I don’t know a woman alive who wouldn’t head into a “needy” state when their man pulls away. It’s sooooo awful for us because at our very core, instinctive nature, we are the relationship caretakers. You can take everything away from us and we would be okay, but if you take relationships away from us, that is where we will fall apart. That is part of why the woman typically takes care of the children and the family unit. She makes sure everyone’s needs are met, she makes sure she knows the teachers, the neighbors, the coaches, all the people involved in their kid’s life (obviously I’m generalizing here as many moms do not operate this way). For men though, their core focus is in their ability to produce. They NEED to produce something in this world. You can take everything away from a man and he will be okay, but taking away his ability to produce in his life will mean that he falls apart. For example, a guy who is the stay at home parent will make sure his kids are okay AND eventually he will start to find projects around the house to fix or something to make to ensure his core, deep, instinctive needs are met. Typically, the man doesn’t think about getting to know teachers and neighbors and all that, because it just not how they think. I can’t tell you how many guys I dated in my younger years that were AWFUL in relationship as soon as they lost their job and didn’t know what was going to happen next.
My point in sharing this, is to expect to be needy when your guy pulls away. That is a very natural response AND…it’s also super important to manage that feeling in a way that doesn’t cause damage or push your guy away. The neediness is definitely a trigger for a guy to put walls up even more. I really love how you have already recognized this and owned your reaction 100%. Well done! The goal here is for you to regain and re-connect with your confidence WITHOUT him. Meaning, finding your center…finding your power…finding your confidence and value EVEN WHEN he pulls away. This will not be the last time he does this, so it’s a good time to practice learning how NOT to lose yourself when he decides to pull away. This is super tough but one of the most valuable skills that I teach my clients. Here is the one question we usually work with….What do you want HIM to do for you, that you are not willing to do for yourself? For example, when he pulled away and your obsession got triggered, you were chasing after him because you wanted HIM to make you feel better. You wanted HIM to help you get out of this pain of feeling disconnected and separated from him. You wanted HIM to confirm that you were not losing him. In summary, you wanted HIM to connect with you, so you didn’t have the feel the pain of the disconnection that was happening. Basically, this is a very disempowered way to get your needs met. Your well being is reliant on HIM instead of having the skillset to take care of your own needs when he is not able to. So this is where you learn how to connect to yourself. You were hurting which turned into obsessive behaviors. Hurt requires compassion and care and that was what you were wanting from him. So how can you give that to yourself instead? What are 5 ways that you can be compassionate and caring towards yourself that is hurting. An easy way to find these answers is by imagining that part of you that is hurting, is a small child. If you were the parent of the small child hurting, what would you do to help them?
I always suggest 2 ways that involve other people and 3 ways that do not involve other people. This way, when others are NOT available to you for some reason in that moment, you still have a skillset to be able to help yourself. For example, some ways that I personally comfort myself is I create a spa day for myself. I’ll take a shower and use my very favorite (and occasional) sugar scrub that has a calming eucalyptus scent to it. I will put on a face mask, I will lotion up my feet and put on super soft socks, I will make my very favorite tea, and I will watch a super light, fluffy, feel good movie. Another thing I do is I will go to the dog park. Dogs, for me, are incredibly helpful. They are playful, silly, friendly, present being that can shift my mood in heartbeat. Another thing I do is I will get out my mandala coloring book and start to color. One skills I teach people is called the Left/Right handwriting technique. Imagine your dominant hand is your adult you and your non dominant hand is your little you, holding all the hurt feelings. I pull out some big paper and my big crayons (sometimes my glitter pens because that is what my little girls feels like writing with) and I have a conversation with her. My adult (right hand) says “I can feel your sadness. I am so sorry that you are hurting. I would love to hear about it. What would you like to tell me.” and then my little girl (left hand) picks up her glitter pen and starts to write what she wants to tell me. It’s fascinating because it truly feels like a child writing with your non-dominant hand. And so we end up having a conversation. The one rule is though…NO FIXING OR SOLVING THE PROBLEM. We have a tendency to want to fix those feelings, but always remember you are dealing with child mentality. What a child needs MOST is just comfort. They need a hug, they need to be validated, they need to be listened to, they need to feel connected. THAT’S IT!!! So as the adult, that is your ONLY job in that conversation. Does this make sense?
Hope all of this helps!
Heidi
Thank you Corrine! I look forward to hearing about your progress! I’m excited for you and your next phase of healing!
Heidi
Lol! There are MANY people that shouldn’t be married, yet they seem to be content enough to stay. You were married for 2 decades because your belief about how you were to be treated aligned with him. I suppose that’s why anyone stays. It’s a strong enough low self-esteem story that keeps us connected to someone and believing there isn’t anything better. It’s quite the fight to shift that deep core wounding and story. I’m so glad you reached that point and are rebuilding.
Isn’t it interesting how you view your parents completely different than when you were young? That’s why children that go through therapy have to revisit everything as an adult, because the child brain doesn’t have the capacity to truly understand and process all the layers involved in the complexity of life situations.
Well it sounds like you feel complete and clear. Do you have any other questions or interested in exploring anything about yourself? I’m here whenever you need 🙂
Heidi
I am sooooo so proud of you Corrine! You did such a brave thing separating from your ex to the levels you have created. What a journey you have taken! I love how much you are respecting yourself as well as respecting your friend. I hope you get everything you are looking for from that therapy. I know what a relief it is to be free from pain and negative stories from our past.
I’m curious….what happened in your childhood or growing up, that you ended up choosing and staying with a narcissist for so long. Have you put those pieces together yet?
Heidi
Thank you for sharing all of that! Well done for coming as far as you have come so far. It sounds like you have been able to truly connect to higher levels of truth about you, parenting, your daughter and those you are surrounded by. I bet it feels good to block your ex. You are 100% right…you don’t need him in your thoughts or energy field. Part of being healthy is having a low pain tolerance. People who are healthy are not okay being treated poorly or interacting with toxic energy. Good job!!!
I love how you are experiencing more of your feminine side. It’s a journey isn’t it? You are exiting survival mode and finding more of a balance, so your feminine side is more free to come out. This guy sounds like he has been really good for you. I’m still curious though…what changed in the past 5 days? You came here looking for answers and wanting to possibly move forward with something romantic with him and now you don’t. What happened?
Even though my brain tells me that, I’ll be doing my very best to feel it in my heart too Yes, I understand this deeply. I have been on a healing journey for decades and there definitely is a big difference between knowing the truth and feeling/living/being the truth. I luckily have a coach who knows how to help people get the truth more deeply into their system. On the most basic level, all that is happening is that your adult self is able to know the truth, but your wounded self (child energy) is still carrying enough lies in her system, that it prevents the truth from getting into your beingness. So it’s basically our emotional baggage that gets in the way of all of us FEELING the truth deep in our hearts. But man, once it gets there, it’s in! No one can take it away from you. I hope this therapy will be able to offer that to you.
Heidi
Hi Corrine!
Oh I’ve never heard of anyone doing this therapy. I’m curious. If you happen to still be a member here, I’d love to hear how it has impacted your life. Very interesting!
So I’m curious. What specifically changed for you just in the past 5 days since your original post? You came here wanting something more from him and how to approach that and now you have no expectations and don’t want anything from him. So what has happened for you that has caused this shift?
This year, I plan on working on me first because I can’t be the best version of myself until I’m completely healed. I LOVE LOVE LOVE that this is your focus. It’s not an easy journey, but one well worth taking. So in your mind, what does completely healed look like to you? Personally, I don’t believe that is possible. I believe that for the rest of our lives we are learning and growing and in order to do that…we need pain, we need hurt, we need dysfunction – otherwise if we were completely healed, we would only have happy emotions and NEVER feel anything challenging. So what does completely healed mean to you? I also want to say that the best version of yourself is a fluid thing and constantly shifting and changing. Waiting until you reach that “best” version of yourself before you enter into a relationship is not realistic. Meaning, it’s absolutely okay for you to be messy and still be in a loving, nourishing, high functioning relationship. My point in saying all of this is to have you look at this idea of you have about yourself in the future (post therapy, healed etc.) and know that you are enough RIGHT NOW. You are lovable, worth knowing, and worth fighting for just as you are. It’s easy to get caught up into this idea of “I need to get better to get what I want or be a better person and it’s a lie. Your thought process is no different than someone thinking “I just need to lose this extra weight and THEN I can get or have…..” I get this train of thought AND learning to love and accept yourself JUST AS YOU ARE is one of the most important journeys you could ever take. Accepting ourselves does not mean we are not growing and learning…it just means that who we are in each moment is lovable.
Heidi
You have been through so much Corinne and it takes quite a bit of time to heal. What kinds of ways are you actively working on your healing?
Help me understand a little more about your situation. Have you ever met this “friend” in person? How often do you message each other? Do you both reach out pretty equally or are you the one initiating more often?
I’m glad you are cautious. That’s important. You have a lot of wounds that need healing, and those can definitely skew our perspective on a person and lead us into more challenging and stressful situations. It’s important to trust yourself and the decisions you make, especially when it comes to romance. Building up that inner trust means you are making healthy choices that protect your heart in a good way.
I just want to encourage you to be very careful with yourself. This guy sounds super supportive AND not available. It’s incredibly easy for ANY woman to fall into fantasy land with a guy who treats them well – and in fantasy land, he is “everything you want in a man.” This VERY easily leads you into wanting more and that is natural. These feelings will cause you to ignore what he is saying of NOT wanting a relationship and they will cause you to ignore paying attention to any red flags and cause you to begin to manipulate the relationship trying to turn it into something more than what it is right now. Us ladies LOVE to push a guy deeper into connection. We can’t help it. It’s sooooo natural and instinctive for us. We are the relationship caretakers of the world. As much as I know and understand about the realm of relationships, I do the same exact thing. So just watch yourself. Keep yourself grounded in what he is saying – he doesn’t want a relationship. And if he ever does, he will let you know. One way to help yourself is to find other people who can help you in the same way he does. He sounds like a great friend. Do you have other great friends that are female? Getting your needs met by different people is a great way to stay resourced, supported, and balanced.
Heidi
Hi Corinne!
Welcome! We are glad you are here asking for help about your situation. I think there is a lot more at play here than you realize, so let’s talk about this.
First, well done for finally separating from your ex husband. Disconnecting from a narcissist is extremely tough and scary. There are sooooo many side effects from being in relationship with someone who has those tendencies and it can take quite a while to heal. I’m glad you have been on your own to allow yourself to re-create who you are without him. I imagine you are still in contact with him, yes? How does that work? Are you able to keep strong in your boundaries? I imagine there is a custody agreement, so is that going smoothly between the both of you?
I understand why you would be attracted to this other guy. He is making you feel everything you were missing for over 2 decades. I love that you are feeling respected, I love that you are watching him care for your daughter, and I love that you like the kind of father that he is. Tell me more about him. How does your friendship work? Do you see each other a few time a week? Do you talk on the phone? Do you go out together with your kids? What’s the overall design of this connection?
I do want to say though, LISTEN to him. If he says he doesn’t want a relationship, he means it. For whatever reason, he is not open to that, so if you want to keep him in your life, it’s important you honor what he KNOWS he is ready for. At some point down the road, he will open up to the idea and hopefully you will be an option for him. The very best thing you can do for yourself and for him, is to put him in the friend box and continue getting to know him. I know it feels like he is everything you want in a man, but you hardly know him. You know a lot about him, but there still is so much behind the scenes that you have no idea about.
I aways coach that you don’t truly know someone and their character until you have seen them in their worst. Their worst pain, their most intense anger, their deepest hurt, their biggest disappointment. It’s actually the worst side of a person that will make or break the success of a relationship. So while this guy appears to be super great, you are just scratching the surface. You don’t know that he is actually a safe and respectful person when he is upset and hurting. You don’t know that he is someone who will stick around and work through things together. I can’t tell you how many times people are blindsided by their partner’s coping mechanisms and they learn the person they THOUGHT was respectful and kind and generous, also has a dark side that is mean, passive-aggressive and destructive. So….the reality is….you are only seeing the best side of this guy and that is NOT enough to say “he is EVERYTHING you want in a man.”
So slow things down and take this time getting to know him. Be VERY discerning and pay attention to ALL that he is, but look for those red flags most of all. We ALL have red flags, but some red flags are 100% deal breakers and other red flags are workable. You don’t want to find yourself in another relationship that breaks you down instead of building you up.
Thoughts?
Heidi
Oh yuk! That’s not fun getting sick! I’m glad you are on the mend though.
Yes, they are a secondary gain. The first, core primary need is to stay small and limited and the way they do that is by sabotaging what they really want – so impulses are high and they while they are sabotaging their success, they are also getting a hit of pleasure out of it – it’s a temporary fix of course, but it’s what I call an inauthentic pleasure. It’s a type of pleasure that is short lived and actually costs you something. Does this make sense?
And of course! I’m happy to talk you through your belief. One way to explore it, is to imagine it didn’t exist. Imagine that you didn’t have that belief and imagine that you had all the time in the world at your age to create the kind of relationship you actually want. What feelings come up with that? What thoughts show up? Also, see if you can locate the origin of this belief. Where or how did this belief get created in you?
Even if the therapist is not young, I still feel like they are like children next to me, from whom I cannot learn much. I understand how you feel. I want to encourage you to stay open though. Even though there were many teachers, therapists, trainers etc. that I had more experience and depth than, I never disregarded the idea that they may have a gem for me. Just the other day I was talking with my client (in the gym – I’m a strength coach as well) and he is a pretty basic kind of guy. I’m creating a keynote speech right now and I wanted to run some ideas by him to see how he responded and what his thoughts were. He was fantastic! As basic as he is, in his perspective and how he said certain things, it gave me exactly what I needed to know where I wanted to go next. So…keep your ego in check and always stay open to being taught by anyone. As long as you are open, all kinds of information is able to come towards you…even in ways you can’t even imagine. I need to remind myself of this sometimes! 🙂
As far as being “ready,” I’m curious….what makes you think or feel that you are not ready? I’ll email you the info
Heidi
Heidi
I’m glad you like that quote! I thought it would resonate well with you! You really might love Colorado. I live near Boulder and let me tell ya…Boulder has the highest PhD per capita in the U.S. I believe. There are a TON of engineers here of every kind, so your science mind would fit right in 🙂
I feel like a prisoner of self-limitations and false beliefs. You could not have said it any better! I 100% agree and know what that feels like. I still am stuck in certain areas of my life, but for the most part, I know exactly what I need to do to create emotional sovereignty for myself. We are all prisoners to those fears and beliefs and the pain that comes with it until we dive in and get to know them.
One of the ways you can begin exploring is looking at how those beliefs and limitations are actually serving you and helping you. I know this is a strange way to look at it, but let me break it down a bit. Here is an example…a woman is overweight and no matter what she does, she always ends up back to where she started. She can lose the weight but she is not able to keep it off because her old patterns and beliefs sneak right back in. How is her being fat serving her and helping her? She was sexually abused as a kid. The fat acts as a protective mechanism to keep her safe from male attention. The fat keeps her in low self esteem. The fat keeps her feeling small and embarrassed. The truth is, if she were to feel amazing in her body, if she were confident, if she truly knew her value, male attention would be something that she would have to navigate so feeling good and healthy means she would have to face that. So being fat means she won’t have to face it. Does this make sense?
Here is another example…a guy always impulsively spends his money. He lives paycheck to paycheck and even when he gets extra, he ends up spending it on stuff and then lands right back where he started…stressed about being able to pay his rent. How is this serving him? When he was young, he overheard conversations between his parents about how stressed they were financially. His dad would always get upset about how much money his mom was spending on their son and how that was adding so much stress to his dad being able to provide. His dad eventually left and never came back. The son ends up growing up believing that his dad left because of him and it was his fault that they had no money. So he absorbed this belief that he should be punished for causing so much pain to his mom and causing his dad to leave. Because of that belief, he ends up always living in stress financially because he doesn’t believe he deserves to be happy and that he only deserves enough to just get by. So he spends all the money to constantly keep himself in stress mode because he doesn’t deserve better. So his brokenness is protecting him from having to face the anger and the blame that deserves to be towards his father and not himself. He would rather keep his father in good graces in his mind, so he takes on the blame himself. Being broke is helping him avoid the choices his father made that deeply hurt him and his mom.
So how about exploring your belief that getting older means you are “running out of time.” What are some of the ways that belief is serving you?
This concept is definitely not something people are aware of within themselves. I only understand it and see it because I’m a deep diver and I have studied the language of the subconscious on many, many levels. So know this is also true for your guy AND he also is in a prison of his limitations and false beliefs and he just doesn’t have the capacity to look any further than being a slave to them. You however, are quite strong and able to explore yourself on this level. It makes you quite rare actually.
I have yet to find a limitation or false belief that at the core level is helping us and serving us. Usually it’s a belief or limitation protecting us even though on the surface level, it is causing A LOT of stress and challenge in our lives. So maybe this is something you can play with when exploring your false beliefs and limitations. How are they serving you? Because until you really get to the core root of that answer, they will always be with you.
But in my experience, our conversation with you is the deepest I’ve ever had with a therapist, believe it or not!This makes me sad, however I’m not surprised. I have been to sooooo many therapists and there have been a handful that had no idea how to help me, because I had actually gone deeper within myself than they had in their own lives and I’m not even a therapist! I had such deep levels of trauma though, so the only way I could heal was to dive into the darkness and find those crevices and caverns to free myself – and finding someone to help me do that was not easy. My coach however, far surpasses anyone I have ever worked with – because she herself goes that deep within. Whenever looking for a guide, you always have to find someone who is further along the path than you are. That’s the minimum requirement. So if you TRULY want to work towards your emotional freedom, then I will email you her contact info. and you can take it from it there. You won’t need to know what to talk about, as she will know exactly where to guide you. All you need to share is that you have this pattern of choosing partners who are emotionally unavailable and you are trying to let go of this current guy and heal and shift that pattern. That will just be entry point – and it will help her know which rabbit hole to take you down if you want to go there. And if you don’t…that’s okay too. It’s not a journey for everyone. Honestly, if you don’t feel like quitting, if you don’t feel like you want to run for the hills, then you are not really doing the deepest level of work. It’s uncomfortable and that’s putting it lightly. However, the results you get are inexplainable. The level of confidence, the level of love, the level of self-trust you get to feel – makes life soooooo much easier and peaceful. It’s been worth all the tears for sure.
Heidi
