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Oh Tabitha! I am so so sorry you are going through this. I’m wondering, what keeps pulling you back into him? He obviously is not willing to meet you in person, so that’s a BIG deal breaker. What is happening for you, that you keep saying yes to him? I imagine this is not how you want to be treated. It hurts every time. He obviously has no integrity in his words, which means you don’t trust him nor feel safe with him. How come you keep going back? So what that he finds a way to contact you. You don’t have to respond. But you are responding and he knows he can pull you back into connecting with him. You are teaching him that how he treats you is okay, every single time you go back to him. So this situation is really not about him and his behaviors. It’s about you saying yes to this treatment. How come?
Heidi
And I’m really impressed at the time you give to the responses on all the threads I’ve read, it’s wonderful and so generous OMG! You seriously just made my day! I had a super rough start to my morning by making someone VERY angry with my advice. It happens sometimes. So reading your kind words and having you acknowledge my caring heart, well….it made me feel seen. Thank you thank you thank you!!! Seriously!
I’d rather be single and available to meet someone who I can respect and love this way, than to be in a relationship with someone who I feel anything less for. I just don’t know if I’ll find that. I LOVE LOVE LOVE this. This is the BIGGEST sticking point, mostly for women. We are the relationship caretakers and when we love and feel bonded, we definitely have a tendency to negotiate away our standards so we can stay connected. We think we can help. We think we can save. We think we can support. We hope for change. So we keep hanging on. It’s probably the #1 coaching topic I talk about with women. The one thing I always ask them and they wrestle with is this…”Is it a loving thing TO YOU, to love this man who is unavailable for you?” The answer always is no, of course. And that’s the journey. When love is healthy, when connection is healthy, it’s loving to YOU FIRST and then it’s loving to him as well. Relationships are 3 entities. There is you, there is him, there is the relationship. It’s absolutely possible, just like in your case, that you love yourself, you love him, but you don’t LOVE the relationship itself. You have moments you love, but overall, the 3rd component is not something you love all the time. This is where women get stuck. They love the guy, but they don’t love the relationship itself. It’s a tough one to really come to terms with. I love that you are able to align with the truth of the situation and who he is, for today at least. This shows how much strength you have. It’s going to be journey to let him go and will take some time. I will be here as your support anytime you need it.
You are right, this is so deeply painful to love someone so much and not know how to help. And I don’t want to cause more pain. Watching someone you love be in pain is so incredibly challenging. What helps me though…is viewing pain as a gift. The truth is, pain is a motivator right? It has the ability to create movement like nothing else can. He has not hit rock bottom yet, to do anything about his pain. He is wallowing and swimming in the pain…which acts as a protective mechanism. At this point, the pain is serving him by keeping everyone at a distance. He would rather be in pain and alone than to face his fear of intimacy and allow someone into his life to see and know his greatness and his darkness. That takes strength and self-esteem…something he doesn’t have right now. So you can help him, by NOT trying to rescue him from his pain. He needs it to continue to get worse (and it will) so that it becomes soooooo uncomfortable that he actually starts to do something about it. Usually, there is a point that someone will start to fight for themselves. Of course there are those that give up and decide to leave this earth and people like that don’t want help – and there is nothing we can do about it. As long as his mom is alive, it sounds like he feels purpose and that’s good. So you can be a listening ear. You can be a friend from a distance. You can send him links to articles or videos talking about depression. Here are a few: https://www.ted.com/playlists/287/4_ted_talks_on_overcoming_depr
What will harm him, is you getting involved and trying to rescue him. You have to learn to be okay that he is hurting. You have to have the perspective that his pain is designed to help him grow and he NEEDS it to get worse so he can finally get help. So you alleviating any kind of pain for him just prolongs the process. Here is an analogy that may help you understand this concept:
This story has been told a gazillion different ways, but I think you will get the point….https://www.instituteofcuriosity.com/the-butterfly-story/Does this help?
Heidi
Great! I’m so glad to hear that you are shifting your perspective about the event! This is a side of myself that isn’t easy for me to love I get it! We all have sides to ourselves that are embarrassing, harmful, hurtful and just plain frustrating. It’s always difficult to love those parts of ourselves. Just this morning, in efforts to help someone with their dog’s nutrition (an area of expertise I have), I ended up just pissing him off to no end. All he heard from what I said, was that he was wrong. Even though that was not what I was doing, it triggered him and I definitely did not help him having a good start to his day. I saw where I was ineffective and why he had felt that way and how I shared the information was not in a way that inspired him to want to learn more. Anyways, I had to spend some time with myself afterwards, working on loving and accepting that I caused someone a lot of anger. I had to use my techniques to help me move the bad feeling I had about myself, out of my mind and body. I had to forgive myself for how I approached the situation. It’s tough! I’ve been doing this stuff for years and even in a silly, small moment like this, it was hard! It’s hard for everyone. But if you really think about it, if your guy had a panic attack in front of you, wouldn’t you have the ultimate compassion for him? Wouldn’t your heart just want to love on him and help him feel okay? Wouldn’t you have patience for him? Why do you think you would be able to offer all of that kindness and love and compassion to him, but not yourself?
How can I do that without being needy? FANTASTIC question!!! There is a difference between being “needy” and “needing” help. Being needy is co-dependent. It means that you DO NOT know how to be okay without him. You DO NOT know how to be happy, feel complete, have strong self-esteem without him reassuring you, without him telling you, without him showing you…all the time. It’s a bucket that NEVER gets filled. So the guy will do it in the beginning, but when a woman constantly is “needy” by always asking for assurances so she can feel safe, it’s a complete turnoff for a guy. It’s when a woman has a void inside and is constantly looking to HIM to fill it. It gets expressed in a million different ways, but in the end, it’s when a woman is relying on her man to feel happy by defining her happiness by his words and actions…it drains the life out of the man.
Needing is more about receiving his help, receiving his compliments, receiving his efforts without constantly needing them. I ask for help all the time from guys…do I need it? Nope. Do I enjoy it? Yep. Sometimes I will ask directly for assurances, but there is a specific purpose and I’m helping him be my “hero” so to speak. Do I NEED him to do that for me? Nope. If he weren’t available, I have other resources to help me. What I know is that I am confident, resilient, resourceful and can absolutely live my life 100% without a man….therefore, I do not NEED a man. But when I do have a man, I absolutely enlist his help, his advice, his comfort, his manliness….not because I “need” it, but because I love it. It makes me feel good and it makes him feel good. It puts a woman in her feminine energy of receiving and the man in his masculine of doing and providing.
So in summary, being needy means you HAVE to have it to function and you depend on him. But needing him in healthy ways means you don’t have to have it, but it’s definitely nice to receive and it feels good for him to offer it. both so he can feel like he has purpose and so I can experience the pleasure of leaning on him. This is healthy. This is supportive and bonding and working together as a team. Needy is clingy…needy is desperate…needy is dependent. It’s a very different energetic texture that most guys run from.
Did I explain this well? It’s so hard to type this one out.
Heidi
Hello there!
Welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing your story. I’m soooo so sorry for what you are going through. It’s incredibly difficult to feel so connected with a man who is not able to reciprocate. I have no doubt he loves you, but it sounds like the depression has taken over and is running his life.
I’ve promised myself that I won’t settle, like we each said before anything happened. Let’s talk about this a little more. What does that mean to you? What are your standards? How do you expect to be treated, even in the worst moments?
Here is the thing that is going to be EXTREMELY difficult to come to terms with. He is emotionally unavailable for you. I know he has some amazing qualities and it sounds like you guys really had a wonderful and respectful connection was was really beautiful. The thing is though (studies have looked at this extensively) what makes or breaks a relationship is how the couple treats each other when under stress. We all have our coping mechanisms. We all have ways that we respond to stress that can sabotage connection, but they are our survival mechanisms. Whatever our coping mechanisms are, they are with us forever. Some get depressed, some are more oriented to anxiety, some blame and shame, some get very overt and angry, some play the victim etc. The difference between all of us, is HOW we handle when we are in a trigger. For me, I pull away. I become a recluse and definitely get passive aggressive in various ways. Before, I used to let my coping mechanisms run the show. Now, I have accountability, I have techniques I use to manage my emotions, I have very wise friends who are skilled at helping me see more clearly, I have a coach who knows how to help me clear the negative energy and stories that got triggered….I have a whole system set up to help me, so that when I am in a trigger, I am taking care of it right away instead of sabotaging connection.
This seems to be missing in your guy. He is letting the depression control him and sabotage connection with you. The stories in his system are sooooo strong that the doesn’t have any way to belief anything else except that he is not good enough….and his system will show him all kinds of evidence for that. It doesn’t matter what you say or believe. It only matters what HE says and believes about himself. You cannot give him self-esteem. He has to fight for that himself. As long as he traverses this road alone and doesn’t ask for professional help whether through therapy or group coaching or doing SOMETHING to help himself, he will stay trapped in this spiral and be unavailable to everyone. He may come out of it as life circumstances change, or he may completely lose himself.
I know you love him so deeply. I know it’s incredibly awful to watch someone you care about, fall into this dark pit of lies. Honestly, it’s hard to say what you can do. What I CAN tell you, is that if he is not the type to fight for himself in his worst moments, then he is not going to be a good long term partner for anyone. You say you don’t want to settle, but what he is showing you about HOW he is handling his depression, is a deal breaker. You would be entering into a relationship with a man who has A LOT of low self-esteem, no skillset or understanding to handle that low self-esteem, and therefore not emotionally stable or available for you as a “partner,” as a “teammate.” It is EXTREMELY challenging for partners who are with someone dealing with depression, even when the depressed person is actively working on healing. The main thing I hear is that is SLOWLY drains the life out of the partner trying to support them. The depression overshadows EVERTHING. The partner ends up spending all their time and energy trying to “lift up” their partner and support them, all the while not really getting to exist in the relationship. The depressed person can’t be happy for the good things happening in their partner’s life, the depressed person can’t even be present for regular conversations, and the partner sure as heck can’t talk about any of their challenges or frustrations.
As you are already seeing, your guy has very little to offer you right now. I know you want to stay present with him and that’s okay, but be careful not to get into the mindset of becoming his caretaker and constantly trying to pull him out of his shell. He HAS TO FIGHT for himself and he doesn’t want to do that, then your relationship has no foundation to stand on. The best thing you can do is to get into a space of acceptance and let him go. He is not able to offer you that deep, intimate love you crave. He has to face his depression and get a hold of it first and foremost and who knows if and when he will make that choice. All you have to go by is TODAY…and TODAY, he is not available. He is not a partner. He is not a teammate. He can’t even be there for himself, so he cannot be there for you and be present for you. So if you don’t want to settle, then that means NOT negotiating away your standards and saying goodbye to a man who is not able to meet your needs.
I know how hard this idea is. You have deeply bonded with him and it won’t be easy. It will be painful. It will also be more painful to stay connected to him and keep this dream alive of you guys being together “one day” and never have it come to fruition. Or maybe it does and then one day, life happens as it always does, and he falls into depression again and pulls away. That is the kind of life you are looking at. If you want to say yes to that, then keep supporting him and keep the dream alive and wait for him. If you want more from love and if you want more for your heart, then it’s time to let go of your dream of being with him. FOR TODAY. It doesn’t mean that down the road something can’t happen. Hopefully at some point he really gets a hold of this depression and gets some help. Either way, you don’t know what the future holds. All you know is that TODAY, he is not available for you, so you need to decide if you are going to settle for that and wait around or decide it’s not healthy for you and you want more and you say goodbye.
I know this is not a fun choice. Either direction, you are facing some pain.
I’m so so sorry you are having to go through this!
Thoughts?
Heidi
Hi Lili! Yes, I got this last message where you said you keep getting error messages, so it looks like it’s working now!
Heidi
I’m not a “friends with benefits” type of woman. Do you see how you are negotiating away your standards? You say this isn’t the type of woman you are, yet that is what you are choosing to be with him. Your words and your actions are NOT in alignment. What do you expect him to think about you? You are teaching him already that you don’t have integrity in your words (in this area of your life) and that teaches him NOT to trust what you say. You are asking him to have integrity with how he treats you, yet you are not having integrity with how you treat yourself. Do you see how this sets up a double standard? You are wanting HIM to do for you what you are not even willing to do for yourself, so that sets HIM up to be the person that makes you feel okay in this relationship, instead of taking on that responsibility yourself. Does this make sense?
I told him that all I want right now is 1. For him to be honest with me like he wasn’t before and 2. That he has to promise he doesn’t disappear again. This again is requiring him to be something specific so YOU can be okay. This is you not accepting that he is who he is. The reality is, he will not be honest again and he absolutely has the ability to disappear on you again. It doesn’t matter what he says. It doesn’t matter how bad he felt about what happened in the past. He responded from his coping mechanism which means, unless he does some deep work where he is working with his triggers and learning new ways to navigate them, he will ALWAYS revert back to his coping mechanism – which is to run away. It’s no different than you having your coping mechanism to rely on the guy to make you feel better. Can I just tell you “Don’t do this anymore” and expect that you won’t? Absolutely not! No matter how much I explain to you how this is hurting you and your relationships, or how much this is a destructive pattern, it’s not something that you can just stop doing. It requires first, to dissect it and understand it, and then second, working with your coping mechanisms on a deeper level and healing what caused this pattern in the first place. So it’s unrealistic to expect him NOT to behave in the same exact again. He of course, doesn’t want to, but the reality is, it’s going to happen in some form or fashion again – just like your coping mechanisms are running the show right now. So instead of asking him NOT to do those things, it’s your job to do 2 things:
1. Accept this is who he is and always will be – our coping mechanisms are with us FOREVER. They never change and they never go away. All that changes is how we deal with them. My coping mechanism is EXACTLY like his. I have just learned how to manage it differently so I don’t cause harm. Am I perfect at it? Absolutely not. I do mess up sometimes, but I recover VERY quickly. But most of the time, when my reaction is to run, I have my skills, I have my coach, I some friends that I immediately activate to help me work through my trigger so that I don’t sabotage the connection. Before, I would just disconnect and deal with the consequences later. I sure hurt a lot of people along the way.
2. In your acceptance of him, it is YOUR job to learn how to be okay even when he falls into his humanness and his coping mechanisms take over. Every single one of us has destructive patterns and ways that we sabotage intimacy. I don’t know if his therapist has the skillset to do the deeper work and equip him with skills to navigate his triggers differently. If he is only doing talk therapy, that is not enough. It’s not deep enough work to shift what is driving those patterns. So…all you have to go by is who he is today.
I told him he hurt me so badly that right now the only thing I want is to physically feel good with him. Do you think so little of your body that you are willing to have sex with him when you don’t even feel emotionally safe with him? What is this about? Do you not view your body as sacred and a privilege for a man to interact with? I’m curious how you view sex…not in general, but about yourself specifically. What are your standards? What do you require in order to have sex with a man?
When you said I’m using “those guys” to fill me up, I’m not sure what you meant by that. Thank you for asking this! Let me see if I can explain this better. With the way you talk and how you view the 2 guys you have posted about here, it’s clear how much you NEED them to be a certain way so you can feel okay about yourself vs. staying empowered and confident in who you are, regardless of the choices a guy makes. You have this pattern with 2 different guys and I can tell it’s a STRONG pattern with how you perceive what is happening. If you are this age and functioning with these 2 guys with this mindset, it means you have done this other times in your past as well. It’s a coping mechanism. No judgement at all. Believe me, I have my own coping mechanisms that are toxic to me and others. We ALL do. My goal here is to just shine a light on what you are asking about. The more you can see your coping mechanism and how they are sabotaging yourself, the more empowered you can become to navigate connection differently. Here are some examples:
1.How long should I wait before I ask if he felt a connection and if he wants a second date? few days? A week? I hate this part of dating and it makes me mad that my time was wasted for 6 months this year :(. This statement is showing your complete focus and concern as to whether or not the guy likes you vs. you having a mindset where you are vetting him. A woman who is empowered thinks like “I had a great time. If he doesn’t initiate a second date with me, then I’m moving on. I deserve a man who is inspired by me and has a natural desire to want to get to know me. Anything less than that is not worth my time and energy.” This is the mindset of a woman who has A LOT of self-respect. She is connected to her value. She knows her worth, whether or not the guy shows up for her. She has standards as to how she is to be treated and doesn’t negotiate away those standards. Your mindset is the other way around. You are putting your value in HIS hands.You HATE this part of dating because you are waiting around for the GUY to say you are valuable by asking you on a second date. You feel like you wasted the last 6 months because it didn’t turn out the way you wanted. You are soooooo focused on falling in love and having that deep meaningful connection, that you are missing the lessons along the way, teaching you about yourself. It’s as if falling in love will fill that void, because you will have finally arrived at that “complete” place. I say this, because this is your attitude when it doesn’t go the way you want: I GIVE UP! or I hate this part of dating and it makes me mad that my time was wasted for 6 months this year :(. or How do I guard myself?
2. I know you told me that i Should hold off on opening up my heart, but I’m so done for!
I’m so totally into him! This shows no discernment. You completely opened the flood gates to your heart with a guy who is dealing with depression, clearly needed things to go slow, is in therapy trying to figure himself out…so basically you gave this guy ALL of you and “fell in love with him” all the while he is NOT emotionally available to be able to reciprocate that. He still needs to take meds to deal with the level of depression in his system. He is not strong enough yet to be able to deal with the stressors of life, love, work or anything without medication. You are letting your feelings guide you completely instead of looking at how the relationship actually functions as well. You are ignoring MANY red flags so you can keep feeling this connection. Where are your standards? And you are making the same exact choice again. You are choosing to connect with a guy you don’t trust, you don’t feel safe with, and who is still not emotionally available. You are playing with fire. You are trying to figure out, how do I connect with this guy without REALLY connecting. It’s not possible. You are bonding with him, plain and simple. It may appear to be slower, but nonetheless you are bonding. You are trying to do this without getting hurt again, but the reality is, if he were to text you today and say he wants to end things because it’s just not right yet, you would be deeply hurt and angry.3. I definitely don’t want breadcrumbs. I asked him if he would like to go on a date in the next month or so, and he said he would love to. So, i just need to proceed with caution. How do i do that though? Is this stupid and foolish of me? You don’t want breadcrumbs, yet that’s what you are setting yourself up for. You are doing this to him by having sex with him, but at the same time holding back. You haven’t forgiven him, so you are now punishing him by holding back your heart, yet you will have sex with him? That’s bread crumbing. That’s revenge. You are wanting to hurt him back by withholding, while still giving him a taste of you through sex. I know he is viewing this as the ball in your court, so you are the one to ask him on the date, but this is you setting up the design again. It’s you taking the lead and that inherently goes against the natural way that men and women function in the courting process.
So what EXACTLY do you think you need to let go of the past? What do you need from him to feel safe again? You say you want to be cautious, and rightly so, but being cautious out of fear is toxic. Being cautious and discerning because you have standards that you expect to be met, so you are feeling things out…THAT is healthy. So what do you want from this guy?
I know I have said a lot here. I know I am coming across strong and blunt. I hope that is okay. My goal is to help you align more with the truth vs. thinking you are doing one thing, when you are not. You have a beautiful heart and beautiful intentions, but you are operating under false pretenses. So my goal is to support your beautiful heart and beautiful connection with truth and understanding about how you function. It’s important to honor yourself by functioning from the truth.
Let me know your thoughts! I’m hoping this wasn’t too much that it caused you to shut down. If this is what happens, PLEASE be honest and let me know. I want to help you, not shut you down. This platform is incredibly difficult sometimes, because I cannot “read” you or “feel” you in the moment and vice versa.
Heidi
I guess I shouldn’t make decisions for my own love life. I’m curious….what do you mean by this?
I don’t regret it , and truthfully i really missed the connection This is what I call a “fishhook.” You are so starved for connection that you are willing to use your body to get it. The thing is, it’s not REALLY connection. It’s a bandaid. We all do this in many different ways, whether it’s emotional eating, spending money to make ourselves feel better etc…it’s all in efforts to help ourselves feel better through external ways. It works for a bit, but it doesn’t actually solve anything, because we end up right back where we started. I used to use sex the same exact way…I used it to boost my self esteem by getting to feel “wanted” and being able to have some kind of power by making the guy feel good and him associating that with me. I had such a GIANT void inside (I didn’t really understand it back then), that men were the way I filled it.
How do I guard myself? Of course you are going to want more. You can’t help it. By understanding your fishhooks and what “hooks” you into a guy that isn’t really the full package, it at least brings you awareness about what you are choosing to step into. You have to decide what you really want Lisa. Do you want to settle for bread crumbing or do you want to fall in love and have healthy connection? If you want the latter, you are going to have to say no to the guys who are offering you less. That’s going to be incredibly tough, because you are using those guys to temporarily fill you up, all while hoping they can offer you more eventually. Holding to standards is tough. It means saying no for higher vision. It means saying no to the experiences you have been saying yes to. It means saying no because you love yourself MORE than the connection. That’s where the deeper work with your therapist comes in. That’s where strengthening your self-esteem and self-love from the INSIDE (instead of the outside – i.e. men) comes in and fills that void. So it’s less about being “guarded” and more about making choices that align with what you really want. It’s more about having standards and not negotiating away those standards. This is a tough one, I’m not gonna lie. It took me years of deep work to finally be able to say no to guys and source my own power and self esteem. I had a TON of trauma though.
Does this makes sense?
Heidi
Hi Christina,
Thank you for sharing your story! It is sooooo incredibly difficult to feel like you aren’t on the same page. It’s actually one of the biggest challenges many “couples” face as they navigate getting to know each other.
How often do you guys get to see each other? And when you do get together, is it typically for a few days?
Have you guys ever had an argument? I’m wondering what his darker side is like. Do you have any idea? Do you know his past relationship history?
Honestly, this “project” is just an excuse. I’m not doubting that it takes up a lot of his time, however there are PLENTY of guys who are still able to make time for their woman. The truth is, when a guy really wants something, he goes after it. So whenever I hear a guy use work as an excuse, then there are 1 of 2 things happening. 1. he is a workaholic which means he will NEVER be available for an intimate close relationship because work will ALWAYS win or 2. he is using it as an excuse to keep some distance. Now don’t get me wrong here…of course there are seasons where work can be more busy, but whatever this project is, when it’s done…there will just be another project to work on. Most guys are NOT aware enough about themselves to even know it’s a way they are creating distance, so it’s difficult to even have a conversation about it.
So my question to you is, do you know if he is a workaholic? How many hours and days a week does he work? When he is with you, is he still working or do you get his FULL attention?
I know he checks all the good things on your list, but does he check the negative things as well? By that I mean….it doesn’t matter how great things are when they are good, because if he is not safe when he or you are under stress, then it’s a relationship that will never feel safe and be sustainable. Do you know what he is like when he is super stressed? Do you know what he is like when he is angry?
I’m bringing this up, because if you don’t even know these sides to him, it might be a good idea to slow down and vet him more before really trying to invest in this guy. I know things feel amazing when you guys are together, but that the easy stuff and very far from knowing whether a relationship is workable, sustainable, and healthy.
Thoughts?
Heidi
Awwww! I am sooooo so sorry you had to go through this! I know how scary it feels, but the truth is…it’s actually a GREAT thing that it happened. You were your limited, uncontrolled self and he got to be right next to you and help you through that. Someone who is going to be that “forever” kind of person, HAS to see all sides of us and love us anyways.
The thing is Anna, when looking for a person to to go through life with and invite into your inner circle, sacred space where your heart lives, the person you want needs to be able to love and accept ALL of you…panic attacks included. If he cannot handle that side of you with compassion and acceptance, then he is NOT the guy for you. AND…whatever his worst traits are, you need to be able to love and accept that side of him as well. Deal breakers are INCREDIBLY important to know and find out about. If he has a pattern of treating you terribly when he is under stress, then that is a deal breaker. If he cannot accept that you have panic attacks sometimes, that is a deal breaker. So you are learning about each other and finding out whether or not you both can handle stress together…or not. Do you see why this is an important thing to discover? Do you see the gift in your panic attack in front of him?
The way you handle this is by loving yourself Anna. If you can love your limitations, then it invites other people into loving you in those times as well. So moving forward, I suggest to have confidence and own it. He will respect that so much more than you being embarrassed and apologetic. So you can say something like “Wow…I really was shocked that happened at dinner. I have panic attacks every once in a while, but you know what? I’m ready to really start exploring where this is coming from. It’s so uncomfortable and I’m ready to learn about it more….” And have a plan ready about how you want to approach this. Obviously, this statement needs to be true and I imagine it is. I imagine you would like to be able to get control of your emotions, yes? So why not tackle this head on and do something about it. Learn about it, master it, own it. A man is truly attracted to a woman who can take care of herself. He wants to feel secure and peaceful knowing that she knows how to handle herself. Men respect that. Men want to be with women like that. Men open their hearts more to women who take care of themselves and do not rely on them to make sure they are happy.
Does this make sense?
Heidi
Hi Christina!
Welcome! I’m glad you are here! Your situation sounds quite confusing…meaning there are a lot of mixed messages here from what you are saying.
I like to just go by 1 simple rule and I have never found this rule to NOT be true in the all the years I dated and all the years I’ve been coaching others. If it’s confusing as to where you stand, then that is reason enough to let it go. Here is a very simple fact. When a guy wants you and is CLEAR about that, he doesn’t play games. He makes it VERY clear about what he wants, he courts you, he initiates, and there is something very natural within him that desires to know you. There is NOTHING stopping him. So…if a guy is sending mixed messages, playing games, and having double standards….YIKES!!! If it’s starting out this way, just imagine a year down the road how you will feel, because he won’t get any better.
My question to you is….Why do you want to get him to stop playing games? Why not just say to yourself, “This doesn’t feel good. Regardless of how much fun we have together, he is inconsistent and confusing and that, in and of itself, is not okay for me. Time to move on.”
What I actually find interesting here Christina, is you have this standard and boundary around sex and your body, yet you don’t have a standard or boundary as to how you want to be treated. Instead, you are trying to find a way to change this guy’s behavior so you can keep dating. Anytime you are not able to fully and completely accept a guy for WHO HE SHOWS YOU HE IS…anytime you catch yourself saying “How do I get him to do…..or “How can I get him to change…..” or anything of that flavor, that is an IMMEDIATE red flag you need to pay attention to within yourself. It’s you negotiating away your standards as to how you want to be treated in exchange for his attention and affections. So I’m wondering, you don’t like this treatment and playing games behavior, so what is stopping you from putting up a boundary and teaching him how you want to be treated, just like you did with sex? Or, maybe another way to look at this is, what is keeping you connected to a guy who clearly is not interested in creating a strong connection with you?
Heidi
Hi Lili!
Thank you for sharing so much more detail. It was really helpful! Let’s definitely keep this conversation going so you can feel very clear about the next steps you would like to take.
1. I LOVE LOVE LOVE that he just came right out and told you about this other woman. That’s fantastic and he gets a gold star for that one! Thank you for clarifying.
2. He has a fear of failing again. This is pretty normal. You have trust challenges which are sourced by fear as well. We ALL have fears that revolve around our past hurts. The fear exists because basically, we don’t want to get hurt again. There is nothing wrong with fear being present, but it can be very damaging to any connection when fear LEADS the decisions. For example, if I am afraid of being cheated on again, it becomes damaging when I secretly go through his stuff, or check his phone when he isn’t looking, or follow him to see where he is going, or constantly question him about where he is at etc. Those types of behaviors are very damaging because fear is in the driver’s seat and controlling the situation. So it’s important to understand that his fear of failing is normal AND that may mean he needs to go slow, that absolutely will mean that you will hit some of his walls at some point (and he will find your walls too) and hopefully, you both are the kind of people that work through them vs. running away from them. Since he is the type to pull away and need to think on his own (the man’s cave), know this is normal for him and it’s VERY important to honor what he needs. This kind of pattern can be VERY VERY challenging for an anxious attachment style, so I definitely see this being a bump in the road at some point that you both will have to figure out.
I want to have a clear picture of what is going on with this woman, I want to know about this relationship and the purpose of their/her communicating and what are his expectations about this friendship and how can I trust that it is just this, a friendship, if there’s one. I don’t even know what happened there. I feel I need information that could give me some picture of where am I standing. Let’s talk about this further. I absolutely understand your thinking that if you just had more information and understanding about this woman, that it would help you feel more secure and clear about where you stand with him. However, I want to invite you into thinking about it a bit differently. You have an insecurity and feel a level of threat by this woman. Imagine you didn’t have trust issues. Imagine that you felt completely confident in who you were, so much so, that it wouldn’t matter what woman came along and interacted with your guy, because you KNOW that you are badass, valuable, worth knowing, worth being with, and that he is damn lucky to be with you. If you felt that about yourself, then this woman would not be a threat, right? Let’s take this even further. What if you felt like you were valuable, whether or not this guy chose you. What if you knew how valuable and amazing you were, to the point that you just trusted that if this guy didn’t work out and he sabotaged the connection, then that’s on him. It’s a learning experience and there will be another guy at some point who will be able to value you and treat you like the queen you are.
So let’s think about this here….if you didn’t have this insecurity, then you actually wouldn’t feel threatened by this other woman and you wouldn’t need to know the details of their connection, right? So how about instead, facing your insecurity and working on it yourself, instead of looking to HIM to fix how you feel (which is only a bandaid to the deeper issue here, right?) You are looking to HIM to help you feel secure, instead of looking within yourself and finding the security that way.
Let’s talk about trust for a bit. There are 2 types. Primary trust is self trust and secondary trust is the trust between you and the other person. The mistake everyone makes in trying to fix their trust issues, is they focus on the secondary trust and ignore the primary trust. This approach will ALWAYS magnify the trust issues because the reality is, we are all messy in relationships. Your guy is going to break your trust in one way or another because he is human and vice versa. So what actually FIXES and heals trust, is repairing and healing primary trust.
Strong primary trust sounds like (using your situation): “I notice he has a connection with this other woman that I do not completely understand and it’s okay. I know that I am valuable and lovable even if he doesn’t see that. If he chooses to sabotage this connection with me, I WILL BE OKAY!!! I trust myself that no matter what happens here, I am resilient, I am resourceful, I know how to get help and I can heal.” When you have that kind of trust in yourself, it keeps your fears in check. Your confidence and belief in yourself is leading your decisions vs. your fear leading your decisions. It’s not that the fear goes away 100%, it’s more that your confidence and belief and trust in yourself is MUCH bigger. The stronger your self-trust is, the smaller your fear becomes.
From what you have shared so far about your situation, I want to encourage you to FIRST, face your insecurities yourself and stop looking to him to fix it for you. I know how tough this is…it’s the road less traveled for sure and is not easy, however, building self-trust is a FOREVER kind of trust that can never be broken unless YOU choose to betray yourself. It’s the kind of trust that if you continue to build, will carry you for the rest of your life and support much healthier connections in the long run.
So, you can either confront him and say something and ask for his re-assurance by requiring details (which is really only a bandaid fix) OR you can look at your insecurity, own it, work with it and use him as a supporting role. What that could look like is by you saying something like “Listen…I know we are still getting to know each other, so I want to teach you a little about me. First, I want to own that my insecurities and trust issues are being triggered by this other woman. I take full responsibility for this. I know I have trust issues from my past that are my baggage and I am working on it and I want you to know that I am struggling a bit. I am not asking you to do anything different, as I have no interest in controlling you. You are a grown man and you get to make whatever decisions you want. I just want to ask for your awareness of my sensitivies and my insecurities. What will help me is you continuing to be open and honest about it – and you have done a great job about that which I truly appreciate. We are still so new, so I just ask for your patience with me as I navigate this. What I need at the moment that you can really help me with, is a little reassurance. Do you still feel good about being with me?”
Do you see how you are not making him the rescuer but instead using him as a supporting role? And then you keep working on your fears and your insecurities on your own.
Thoughts on this?
Heidi
Hi Lili! Welcome! I’m so glad you are here looking for another perspective. What a courageous thing you are doing asking for help and wanting to show in the best way possible. Well done! I love that you are owning your patterns, your fears, your attachment style and how you feel in relationships. Good job! We ALL have funkiness when it comes to love, but hat makes one person better at it than another, is how they deal with their funkiness. Someone like you, who is owning it, reaching out to learn about yourself, and willing to be held accountable is what a good partner does! So as much as you may feel like preschooler, you are doing something that most people are not willing to do and that is ask for expert help and to keep learning. So give yourself more credit. We are ALL messy, but it’s what we do with our messes that make us effective or ineffective.
So let’s talk about your situation. I know it’s INCREDIBLY tough to differentiate between behavior that signifies him hiding something and your fear and lack of trust. It’s especially tough when you are still getting to know someone. You don’t know 100% of his patterns, you don’t know his habits, you don’t know his typical response to all different types of situations, so trying to determine what’s appropriate or not is tough!
I’m curious…what was his behavior when you said he was acting “weird?” What was weird? Also, do you know much about his past relationships? Do you know if he has ever cheated before? What’s his relationship like with his family? What are some of the red flags you are noticing about him and how he handles stress?
I have no idea how to approach this because I don’t want to make him pull away and because I feel it’s too early, but at the same time I feel I need to do something about it. So let’s get clear here. What do you want to do about this? Meaning, if you confront him, what are you hoping to accomplish?
First, it’s important to acknowledge there could already be a red flag that he wasn’t up front with you about this other girl. He was acting weird and it took you asking him about him about it before he was willing to tell you. Being that this is a very new relationship, it’s understandable that he may not have known how to handle this, especially since he knows you have trust issues, but it IS something to pay attention to and keep in the forefront of your mind as you get to know him. He may be that kind of guy who hides things, so just keep paying attention and looking for this pattern. Him hiding his phone from you COULD be that same thing or could be something totally different. I know for me, I am a private person, so I don’t like having talking or texting conversations in front of anyone else. The thing is, you just don’t know at this point.
Honestly, you guys are sooooo new, so there definitely is a strong possibility that you may scare him away. Ultimately, what you have to decide first and foremost, is that you choose and love yourself no matter what. What a lot of women do is they sacrifice their needs and standards in order to stay connected to a relationship they inherently don’t feel safe in. So get clear here…do you want to choose yourself or do you want to choose the relationship? This is an important decisions because if you choose yourself, then it’s time to say goodbye to the fear of losing him. Imagine you were NOT afraid of losing him, what would you do?
I don’t want you to do anything with him quite yet, because it’s important for you to get very clear first and foremost. So let’s keep talking about this.
Tell me what your relationship is like. How deeply do you guys have conversations? Why did you say yes to being exclusive with him? What is so great about him that you would invite him into your inner circle?
Heidi
Hi Crystal!
Welcome! Thank you for sharing your story and being here. I am soooo so sorry for everything you have been through. Trauma from abuse is so incredibly impactful on all relationships. I’m not surprised you treated him the way you did. The part of you that carries the trauma from the abuse, is just trying to keep you safe. It’s a very common and normal response and I love that you are getting help. Are you still continuing to work with someone today?
I’m glad he is also getting some help. It sounds like he has some deep issues to work through as well.
I don’t know if this relationship is salvageable. So much has happened and there have been enough occurrences of hurtful words and acts, that it can extremely difficult to let all of that go, in order to create more safety in the connection. Sometimes, too much has happened to try and clean things up.
What I would suggest is to keep SHOWING him how you have shifted. I’m sure you have apologized and owned your side of things, yes? What was his response?
Has he actually noticed you have changed? If yes, how? Words at this point are not going to have much power. Actions are what is going to convince him that you are shifting. What kinds of things can you do to SHOW him how you have shifted?
I think it’s a good idea that you honor his need to get divorced. That is part of you showing him that you want to respect his needs, even if it’s not what you want. This is how you build trust. You listen to his needs, honor his requests and boundaries, and stay open to connecting WITHOUT anger or judgment for his choices. Even if you guys do get divorced, it doesn’t mean it has to stay that way. Maybe over the next 2-3 years, you guys slowly build trust back up again, you both learn how to relate differently to each other and you guys decide to come back together. Who knows! Either way, a divorce doesn’t have to be the end.
Would he be willing to go to a therapist WITH you? What if you suggested to see a therapist together for the sole purpose of NOT getting back together, but to do the work to forgive each other, clear the air and say the things that need to be said, so you can both move on. It’s the “conscious uncoupling” concept. Have you ever read that book? It’s a fantastic approach and it can be a way that you both can learn how to “uncouple” in a healthy way. Do you think he would be open to something like that?
Heidi
Fingers crossed that will help prepare me for when the right guy crosses my path! EVERYTHING you do to develop new skills, communication, facing your fears, and stepping into new sides of yourself, will absolutely help you when the “right” guy comes across your path. Which leads me into helping you have a more expanded perspective of the “right” guy. Instead of thinking that there is 1 “right” guy for you, believe that EVERY guy is the “right” guy for you…FOR RIGHT NOW. There is NO GUARANTEE of anything lasting “forever,” so take the pressure off and view each guy that you have an interaction with, IS the “right” guy to help you get to know yourself. Some guys will be fleeting experiences and some guys will last a little longer. And occasionally you might find a guy who has the right stuff to inspire something much deeper. Either way, if you view relationships and love in general as part of the schooling and that each guy is a teacher, showing you new sides to yourself, showing you where your triggers are, exposing your insecurities and low self esteem, exposing your greatness….then you can appreciate and value each experience, no matter how long it lasts. I know you imagine falling deeply in love and being with that person forever and that means he is the “right” one, but again….lasting forever could or could not happen. I’ve seen 20+ year marriages fall apart, so all that means is the relationship ran its course, they were the “right” ones for each other for a season, and it’s time to do something different. So maybe consider that each guy you interact with, always holds something valuable for you.
I get that flirting can be more scary than just being blunt and to the point. This is great though! You obviously can choose that route, but why not expand yourself. Why not face these fears? He is the PERFECT person to be awkward with! You guys have such a strong connection, that it definitely can withstand you growing and expanding in new ways. Besides, if he bails because you get awkward, then that is something you need to know about him then, isn’t it? If you stay small and hide your imperfections or always color within the lines so you can keep his attention, so you can make sure you don’t scare him away, then that is YOU trying to be “perfect.” That is an incredibly dangerous way to function within a relationship. How is he ever supposed to TRULY know you, if you are hiding parts of yourself because you are afraid of losing him? How is the relationship ever going to grow, if you stay the same all the time? Why not step into flirting, find your own version of what that means for you, be courageous and allow yourself to be awkward, and challenge the relationship? It’s good for you and it’s good for him. You have to keep learning that your connection can withstand different energies and that he is able to love you and value you, even WITH your imperfections!! So….I know it’s super scary, so I think that’s an even stronger reason you should flirt and NOT be blunt. Do the hard thing because you want to grow. Do the scary thing because you want to be the kind of person and partner who faces her fears instead of running from them. Step into the gray and get to know that space because there is A LOT of gray in love.
I love that you are working on a new mindset about looking at him at work. Working on that “ashamed” feeling and changing the narrative around it, can definitely help you develop new strength to OWN how you feel, even at work. It’s always a risk for sure, but what is more important than that risk, is the belief that whether or not you get what you want out of this, you are interested in becoming more confident, more authentic, and growing more internally strong. Well done!!!
Thoughts on all of this?
Heidi
Hi Lisa,
Great to hear from you!
I understand your frustration and confusion about dating. It can be confusing, because there are a lot of mixed signals out there, mostly because a lot of people don’t know themselves very well and they let their feelings lead them, which is a very dangerous thing to do. Our feelings are NOT stable, especially when just getting to know someone.
There are a few things we can talk about here. First, I’m noticing that what you are concerned about is whether or not he likes you. I want to invite you to think about this differently…and this applies to ALL dating. Instead of focusing on whether or not he likes you, focus on whether or not he meets YOUR standards. By focusing on HIS feelings, you are completely ignoring YOUR experience, which is the most important by the way. You went on one date and it sounds like you had some fun together and that he was a nice guy. I get that you want a second date with him, but part of your standards needs to be that he initiates with you. Part of your standards needs to be that he has something natural and organic within him that wants to reach out and continue to get to know you. If he doesn’t have that, then he is not the right fit for you, no matter how much fun you guys had. I understand it may be confusing that a guy wouldn’t ask for a second date after having a lot of fun together, but that’s about HIS journey and not about yours. And HIS journey is not what you need to concern yourself with. What you need to concern yourself with are his ACTIONS. It’s pretty black and white here. He reaches out or he doesn’t for a second date. If he doesn’t, then that is something you need to know about him, right? It doesn’t matter why, ALL THAT MATTERS is that he didn’t reach out, so stop your mind from circling and circling and circling around the “why” behind his behavior and switch your perspective to “I want a guy who has NOTHING stopping him from wanting to know me. This guy is not initiating a second date, there is very little conversation happening so he isn’t making much effort to get to know me outside of being in person, so he is not for me.” Again, instead of looking at HIS feelings, focus on yourself and how you want to be treated. By focusing on whether or not he wants a second date with you, that is you putting your value and the choice in HIS hands, instead of staying empowered and making this about YOU screening him to see if he is good enough for you.
And I do want to say…it’s only been one date. You don’t know this guy, you don’t know his patterns, you don’t know anything…and you are already wanting to push things faster….just like you wanted to do with the last guy. It seems to be a pattern that you move very quickly. It seems to be your thing to quickly attach and make the guy your entire world and your entire focus. Would you say this is true? Let’s talk about this more.
I would suggest to 100% let this guy take the lead. If he doesn’t initiate, if he doesn’t ask you out again, then move on. DO NOT ask if he felt a connection. DO NOT ask for a second date. That is you being the initiator and that will come across 100% as needy, desperate, controlling, or too fast. His actions give you the answer. In the beginning of ALL dating, the actions are far more meaningful than any words. So if his actions are telling you that he doesn’t want to connect very much, he doesn’t call to talk, he doesn’t ask you out again…then you have your answer.
I hate this part of dating and it makes me mad that my time was wasted for 6 months this year :(. Awwww! You feel you wasted 6 months??? Listen Lisa, there is NEVER a wasting of time. The reality is, there is A LOT for you to learn. It seems like you are so focused on falling in love and finding your guy, that if it doesn’t have that result, then it’s a waste. View dating as a school. There is ALWAYS something to learn about yourself and that means that every single date has value in it. I have been on hundreds and hundreds of dates and you know why? Because my focus was always wanting to learn about myself, develop new skills, become a better connector, a better communicator, become more aware of my insecurities….so never once was a failed, lousy date a waste of time. Never once was a deeper experience with a guy that didn’t work out, a waste of my time. It’s about the journey, NOT the destination. If all you are interested in, is falling in love, then you are going to be MISERABLE dating. You are going to keep hating the confusion, the mixed messages, and the rejection. I would say to STOP dating, work with your therapist for a while and really get grounded in yourself and strengthen your self-esteem, work with your need to jump in and control, and then enter back into dating. It seems you put a lot of your value in THIER hands and that makes dating extremely painful. Rejection is part of this journey, however it is the greatest gift a guy could give you. Why? Because when a guy rejects you, it’s a GOLDEN opportunity to learn how to love yourself, choose yourself, and strengthen your inner connection with yourself. It’s through all of the rejections I had to deal with, that I was able to strengthen my connection with myself. Meaning, when a guy didn’t choose me, I learned how to choose myself. That’s how we stay empowered in the face of rejection. That’s how WE become the ones to determine our value and stop giving it to a guy to decide for us. That’s how we don’t lose ourselves in relationship and love. So when a guy is not behaving the way I want, or giving me enough attention, or making me feel not valued, instead of looking to him to fix how I feel, I know how to fix myself. I know how to address my own insecurities. I know how to let go of control and just let him be who he needs to be and then I decide from that place, whether or not it works for ME, and not the other way around.
I know I’ve said a lot here and hopefully it wasn’t overwhelming. What are your thoughts?
Heidi
