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but I sensed also that if I said no to that he would have left me standing alone in the middle of that area, which would have triggered me to have a PTSD disassociation and been more embarrassing than just going along as if I was on board with holding hands. You don’t know if that is how it would have played out. It’s possible, but it’s also possible that something else could have happened too. You have to get to a point where you are in enough pain from all the rejection and low level connections you say yes to, that you make a different decision.
There are many ways to deal with PTSD reactions to help yourself through challenging moments. I had so much PTSD that I had to develop a skillset so I could support myself whenever I was triggered, which happened A LOT! I had a major disability and like anyone with a disability, I had to figure out ways to rely on and support myself, especially when there was no one to help me. And now, I feel completely self sufficient and empowered. I can be myself, even when I’m triggered, and know how navigate it. There is always a choice. You will strengthen yourself every single time you make a choice that keeps you in your integrity instead of betraying yourself and going along with a situation that goes against what you want. You are so concerned about what everyone will think about you, that you abandon yourself. Again, you say you don’t understand why this cycle continues, but if you look at how you treat yourself, you will find that answer. My therapist tagged me with a truth that I’ve never forgotten. You cannot expect someone else to do for you, what you are not willing to do for yourself. Translated to your situation…you cannot expect other people to care for you, honor your feelings, listen to how you feel, value what you say, when you don’t do that for yourself (I’m speaking specifically when it comes to relationships, not your whole life in general).
I am always alone wherever I go, while those who have lied about me are always with people. Comparing is REALLY dangerous. You are looking from the outside as if companionship is all that matters and that’s not true. I personally would rather be alone than to have companionship with people who gossip, are destructive and harmful. People like that are really unhappy people. “Like attracts like.” So they are all friends because they are at the same level of functioning. They approach life in similar ways, they deal with stress in similar ways and they are harmful in similar ways. They all may be friends from your viewpoint, but I guarantee you that their vindictive, passive-aggressive behavior they have towards you, they also will have towards anyone else in their life…you just don’t see it or know about it.
I also wanted to say one more thing. You said that you don’t know how to say no, but you said no to me. You did not resonate with my coaching before and you still don’t and you made that very clear. How that might have affected me, didn’t matter enough to you to stay silent about what you wanted and needed. THAT choice, THAT feeling you had that brought you into action to ask for Spyce, THAT desire to get your needs met IS what it looks like to honor yourself. You did exactly what you needed to do, despite my feelings. So you have it in you! Now you need to cross that over into the relationship category. You are a very strong personality Jadene, but you end losing yourself when it comes to men. I understand you have a lot of PTSD, so maybe it’s time to clear all of that, so you can start to feel your beautiful strength, no matter the situation you are in.
Heidi
I hope it’s okay that I answer again.
Like I don’t understand the mechanics of saying no. I understand and I love that you are asking this question. It’s actually quite a common question that comes from women, as females have been taught to be a very specific way in the world for a very long time…and saying “no” was not part of that programming. Regardless, let’s start with your idea of what it means to say no.
I just don’t understand why I don’t have the option to state a boundary without being abused or abandoned. This breaks my heart that this has been your experience. I felt this the majority of my life growing up. Thank goodness I had a very strong mother in my life who got me help with an amazing therapist when I was in college. She taught how to say no and most of all, that it was okay and my right to say no.
Here is another truth that took me a while to feel okay with and embrace that saying no was okay…any person’s negative reaction to my “no” is about THEM and has nothing to do with me. If someone has trouble with my “no” then they are more interested in their own needs than caring about mine. For me, that is an immediate sign of someone who is incredibly fragile, selfish or narcissistic and/or has a very high need for control…no matter the reason (which really doesn’t matter) it is someone I am not interested in interacting with. Their abuse or negativity is not for me to deal with, try and fix, or change. My job is to get away from them as soon as possible in order to protect myself from someone who is wounded and harmful. Their feelings are not my responsibility and it’s not my doing. The reactions someone has to my “no” comes from woundedness that was there waaaaaay before they met me, so that’s why it’s okay to be okay with letting someone deal with their own baggage without me stepping in trying to fix or change how they are feeling.
Saying no can be graceful and respectful at first. If someone keeps pushing, saying no in a more firm way is required and if they still are not respecting your choice, get away from them. I remember in college, a cop came and talked to all the female athletes. It was a talk about rape and the signs to look for. I was shocked because what he said, had happened to me a gazillion times, but I never gave it a second thought. He said one of the first signs of a guy who carries the “potential” to rape is a guy who ignores your “no” even once. He said even the smallest thing like a guy putting his hand on your leg at dinner, and you say no, and he tries again later…THAT was a sign of a guy who is not truly listening, respectful and has his own agenda. He carries the “potential” for rape. Back then, I thought that was a bit extreme, but having lived life more, I now realize the level of truth he was saying. The bottom line truth is, any person who does not respect and honor your no, they are dangerous on so many levels. Bottom line is, they are someone who is not capable of truly caring about your needs, so regardless, they are not a safe person to have in your life, because they do not respect boundaries.
A huge part of it too is not wanting to be rude or mean. I get it. Maybe think about it this way…isn’t it rude and mean how that guy treated you? So why is it okay that he treats you that way and use you for anything he could get from you, but it’s not okay for you to say no and have a boundary? Instead, it’s 100% rude for someone to ignore your no. It’s 100% disrespectful for someone to dismiss your no, fight against your no, criticize your no or anything of the sort. This type of thinking that it could be rude or mean to say “no” is all about THEIR feelings with you entirely excluding yourself from the equation. Wouldn’t you say that it’s mean to YOURSELF to say yes to being treated the way that guy treated you? So basically, you are more concerned about how HE would feel than your own well-being. Truly loving and supporting yourself means you NEED to say no, in order to protect your heart, your spirit, your energy and your well-being. There is NOTHING rude or mean about that! When is true self-love ever rude or mean?
I’m going to share a fundamental truth that may be hard to embrace. I know when I was first confronted with this, I had quite the wrestling match with my therapist. It turns out, she was right. We allow others to treat us the way we feel about ourselves. It was hard for me, because I had worked really hard to like myself and felt like I had a lot of good self-esteem. However, in the love department, I still had a lot of work to do and my experiences reflected back to me where I was still struggling. My guess is, this is part of why this pattern keeps showing up in your life. You value how someone else feels more than valuing how you feel. Your feelings matter less than the other person’s feelings. So fundamentally, you are treating yourself the same exact way these “low level” guys are treating you. They don’t support or value how you feel, which mirrors exactly how you treat yourself… you are not giving yourself permission to say no, to feel what you want to feel and have that be okay, even if it opposes the other person.
I do not understand the specific mechanics of exactly what I was supposed to do and say. I just don’t understand. I’ve never seen it modeled and it makes no sense to me. I had the same question too. When I first started saying no, I was quite messy with it. My therapist at the time, gave me an incredibly challenging assignment. Before learning the “mechanics” of how to say no, I had to just get comfortable with saying no in the first place…WITHOUT explanation. If I felt the smallest amount of “no” energy in response to someone asking something from me, I HAD to say no. The first step is feeling okay with the word. Until then, the mechanics of saying no don’t matter, because it’s less about what you say and more about the energy behind the delivery. So…it took me a handful of months to practice the word no, because I had to face A LOT of irritation, frustration, disappointment, and anger. BUT…eventually I got more comfortable with it. Every time someone got upset with me, it gave me the opportunity to practice letting THEM take care of their own feelings instead of stepping in and trying to rescue them and fix how they feel. It was soooo hard, but I shifted. Then…saying no was not so scary. Saying no was 100% okay. Saying no was my right and I owned that right. So basically, I went from 1 extreme of always saying yes, to the other extreme of saying no A LOT, and then I found the balance. That is the gift of extremes…you cannot find the middle of extremes until you know each end of the extreme, right? That’s why my therapist asked me to go the extreme of saying no all the time. For many years, I was so used to ignoring my internal no, that I barely recognized my “no” energy.
So for right now, I would suggest you start to more deeply look at your relationship with the word no. One thing I did, was watch a lot of movies with strong female characters, standing up for themselves, fighting for themselves, fighting for what they wanted despite all the obstacles. When there are no real life role models, you can always find them in movies.
But, just for an example, a way you could have set a boundary with that guy, is once you got inside, enjoyed some dances with him, but then the moment it started to head into a direction you didn’t want, you say “No thank you. I’m not interested.” It’s clear, direct and strong. When women try and be nice and fluffy with their “no” they are not taken seriously. Again, it’s about the energy behind the delivery, more than the words. When I want a guy to truly hear me, I make eye contact and say clearly “No thank you.” That’s it. The eye contact is important because it delivers the answer with confidence and certainty. I’ve been called rude, abrasive, mean, uptight, told I need to have a drink etc. Of course it sucks for a moment to hear those things, but I quickly get myself connected back to the truth…their feelings and story about my “no” just reflects THEIR baggage that has NOTHING to do with me. My story and truth I choose to connect to is that I am THANKFUL and GRATEFUL I said no because that person just showed me they would not have been a safe or caring person to have in my life. I have every right to say no and how someone else reacts is THEIR journey – my journey is to love myself and stay connected to myself if they choose to be rude or critical in return.
I shared a lot here, so let me know if you have more questions.
Heidi
Hi Jadene
I will make sure that Spyce chimes in and takes over, as I know you don’t really resonate with me and that’s okay.
I just want to say something to what you are asking: Why in the world am I seen as somebody who can be treated like this or taken so easily or whatever, while the upstanding man doesn’t see that I’m one of the highest quality women in this town? I don’t totally understand this recurring cycle. There are many things that influence why cycles keep showing up in our lives, but I have found that if it keeps showing up, I haven’t learned everything I needed to learn from it.
With this last guy, you participated in HIS design instead of holding to the standards of what you actually want. I just did my own thing and remained receptive to him, because it felt nice to be pursued and attended to I understand it feels really nice to be pursued, but there is something you may want to consider…you complain about the “bottom feeders” yet you choose to be receptive to them because the attention is more important. This can be part of why the cycle keeps happening – when you say yes and engage in the attention/intimacy with someone who does not hold potential for you – you basically are saying “I will choose any attention over my standards and what I want for myself.” I know it’s only one night, but is a pint of ice cream just one night, okay for someone who has the goal of losing weight? Yes, of course it’s okay AND it’s a choice that is impactful and has consequences. It’s a choice that goes against the goal. Each time we make a choice that goes against what we want, it actually reinforces what we don’t want.
Do I have to keep going to events alone, standing alone, looking at the band only, not making eye contact with anyone, hiding my misery? It seems that you feel like going alone would be worse than dealing with a drunk guy who treats you like crap, expects to get laid, and doesn’t have the capacity to care about you on any level. Is being alone more awful than that? It seems you pair being alone with misery. At the same time, you keep saying yes to these very low level interactions which is adding to your misery too. Maybe explore your choices?
I’ll leave it at that and hope this helps at least a little.
Take care Jadene!Heidi
Wow! I’m impressed with how grounded you are. So many people fight against what is happening and are only interested in ways to change it or fix it. It’s a rare person who accepts what is happening. Well done! That’s a testament to your self-esteem.
I totally agree…with him recently exiting a tumultuous relationship with the baby mama, it doesn’t sound like he was ready and may have had a “rebound” kind of energy to it. It makes a little more sense since he said it was an “irresponsible” choice. His mindset definitely is not in the space to be in a relationship.
That is so exciting about the job opportunity!!! Are you going to take it? It is always very helpful to have a really exciting new adventure after a breakup. It helps to bring new life and new vision into what else is possible.
Also, do you think it’s a bad idea if eventually (definitely not now or in the near future) I bring up what you said about his fear of happiness to him? It depends on the kind of relationship you guys create down the road. Whenever I am wanting to share ideas or guidance with someone who I don’t feel I can be direct with, I will use myself as the example in casual conversation. So you might say something like, “I learned something really interesting the other day! It’s crazy to me, but I’ve seen myself do this and I’ve seen other people do this as well and it makes so much sense now. I learned that we have a limit to how happy we will allow ourselves to be….” This is typically the safest way to share something. Otherwise, people typically do not take kindly to someone pointing something out in them. Everyone is different though. Just use your instincts and if you somehow upset him, you at least planted a seed and learned that he maybe is more fragile than you thought. Does this help?
Heidi
Hi Brandy,
Wow. I’m so so sorry for what you are having to deal with. Your poor heart. Of course you are confused and have anxiety about all of it. I would say it’s pretty normal, considering he is stonewalling you.
I’m trying to play it cool because , I don’t want to pressure him, I know he is going through a lot I personally do not use the excuse that someone is going through a lot, as a green light to treat me bad. We ALL go through extremely difficult times in our lives and it’s how we choose to navigate those times, that is the real test of our character. So far, your guy is showing you that he thinks it’s okay to stop communicating and completely cut you out of his life..without a single word, without helping you understand what he needs, without considering how it would affect you. This is the type of behavior that sabotages and ruins relationships. It’s not okay. You are acting as if you did something wrong. Maybe you did, maybe you didn’t, but regardless, a GOOD partner TALKS about it. So to leave you completely in the dark is NOT okay.
Research has shown that it’s how we treat each other in the worst moments, that determines the success of a relationship. Your guy is not someone who can sustain a healthy connection. His coping mechanism is to shut down, abandon you, abandon himself and leave. He has already done this once, he is doing it again and he will do it again at some point. His behavior completely ruins trust and emotional safety and when those are not solid in the relationship, the foundation of the relationship is compromised.
So you have a choice here. YOU get to decide how you are treated. What you are teaching him, is that he can disconnect for as long as he wants and you are still going to be there whenever he feels ready to come back. Is that what you want to teach him? There are no consequences for him, so why should he do anything different? It doesn’t matter what his reasons are, it’s no excuse to treat someone with such coldness. So you can wait until he decides to come back and move forward or you can set some boundaries for yourself. The thing is, you have to be willing to lose him and you may not be ready for that right now. I know it would be a big deal. But the choice here is…love yourself enough to have a standard as to how you are treated, or don’t have a standard and be treated this way. This is more about your own self-love. We are the ones who teach people how to treat us. When you have standards, that means that people who don’t align with your standards, don’t get to be in your life…no exceptions.
You are of the mindset right now that somehow you are the cause of his behavior instead of having the mindset “I will not accept being treated this way, no matter what he is going through.” But like I said, if you don’t accept it, that means you risk losing him, because the reality is, he will do this again and again and again unless he really faces how damaging his actions are and makes some changes. So you get to decide what you want to do.
Here is an article about stonewalling: https://www.gottman.com/blog/help-someone-told-me-im-stonewalling/
This article explains what it is, but the difference is, your guy never talked to you about what’s happening, it’s lasting for an extended period of time and you have no clue what is happening. That is what is making your situation more harmful than anything. Your guy has a coping mechanism to not communicate, disconnect completely and who knows for how long and then he will return whenever he feels like it. This is a coping mechanism that will be the demise to any relationship he is in. It’s not okay. It’s harmful, it’s uncaring, it’s toxic, and as you are experiencing, it truly is awful to be on the receiving end of it.
I know I’m coming across a bit strong and I hope that’s okay. It’s truly awful what you are going through and my heart goes out to you. It’s time for you to get tough and set some boundaries and standards that are loving to yourself. I know what he is doing, as I used to do it all the time. I was sooooo wounded and emotionally fragile and it came out in such toxic and harmful ways. The best thing anyone ever did for me, is set boundaries and consequences for me, so I had to LOSE something for my behavior.
Does this make sense?
Heidi
Hi Matea!
Welcome! We are glad you are here and sharing your questions with us!
I’m so sorry this happened so suddenly. It’s always really difficult when we don’t see it coming. You guys have liked each other for a very long time! I’m wondering what took so long for you guys to get together. I’m curious…what happened that you both finally decided to move forward?
He said our relationship is the first healthy relationship he’s ever seen or been in, and he just has no idea how to be in one. It sounds like he has a lot of fear. I know this is a strange concept, but it’s a very normal thing we all face…when we actually get what we want, if we are not emotionally set up to be happy, we will sabotage it. I see it aaallll the time. I’ve seen it in myself as well. It’s called the “upper limit.” It’s the limit in our psyche that determines how happy we will allow ourselves to be. What determines that limit, is how much low self-esteem / fear we carry. The more fear and low self-esteem, the lower the limit. The only way to increase that limit, is to face our fears and face whatever caused our low self-esteem. It’s a path rarely taken, because it’s very uncomfortable and hard, but very do-able. It sounds like him feeling happy with you was a trigger that activated his fear and shut down his system. When this happens, it’s very normal to look for things that are “wrong” in the relationship or wrong with the other person in order to “justify” the fear. So him saying that you needed to get your career and yourself figured out, is his “justification” as to why it won’t work…along with all the stuff he is dealing with as well. You both are soooooo young, that having yourself and your career “figured out” is quite unrealistic.
From everything you said, he just seems really overwhelmed and his solution is to just not be available for you in the way you need. For a guy especially, when his life is not figured out with work and this kid (both are a lot to deal with), cutting out a new girlfriend helps him feel less pressure. Men typically operate very differently than women in this department. We are much more oriented towards relationship and think “I am having a hard time right now, so I’m going to want support.” Men think “I’m having a hard time right now, so I want to go into my cave and figure this out and not be bothered.”
As far as how much time you give him, there is no way to really know. I do suggest that you move on with your life. When you wait…you are putting your life on hold for someone who many never change his mind. This is not good for you. I always tell people, move on with your life and grieve the loss. It doesn’t mean the door can’t open again. It just means that you are accepting what is happening RIGHT NOW and building your life around that, instead of building your life around “potential.” Accept he is not ready right now and face your broken heart. Then you can stay connected as friends, open your heart to other possibilities and who knows…the possibility of him may circle back around again and you guys can start fresh.
Does this make sense?
Heidi
Hi Sarah,
Welcome! It sounds like you are really hurting and confused. One day things are going great and then it took a very fast turn into an ending. It sounds like you guys were having a really great time together, so that makes it even more difficult to have things end so fast. I’m so sorry for what you are having to feel right and go through. It’s so incredibly challenging to have a broken heart.
There is a lot to talk about here, so let’s work through this all slowly.
The first thing I want to say, is you BOTH moved pretty quickly with this connection. The amount of texting, gifts and future talk was quite extensive considering you just met each other.
When I spoke about other guy friends I had who liked me or had previously liked me, he expressed jealousy. He expressed concerns about STD’s, and said things that made me feel like he wanted monogamy. This is also a red flag and NOT a sign of caring about you. Jealousy is about feeling insecure which activates a high need to control. For example, him getting upset because you had plans that prevented you guys from hanging out, is a controlling type of reaction, NOT a reaction showing you he cared about you. I’m not saying he didn’t care about you. I’m just saying you are interpreting some of his reactions that are BIG RED FLAGS, as a sweet and caring thing, when in actuality they are reactions showing his insecurity and need to control.
I feel deeply heartbroken, depressed, and attached to this guy, and I can’t let him go. I’ve tried sleeping with other people, and it’s not working (in the past it has). I can’t get him off my mind. The entire thing blindsided me as I thought everything was perfect This is so hard. I get it. You deeply invested in him and it’s going to take some time to heal.
Please help me get him back. I feel desperate, and will do anything it takes. This is a dangerous energy to be leading you and here is why. Desperation is more about getting out of pain by re-connecting to him and NOT about facing what has happened. Desperation causes us to make decisions from a very limited viewpoint. The only viewpoint you have right now, is that he was perfect for you and you want him back. If you were not desperate to stop hurting, you would be able to see the MANY red flags here and that he is actually NOT the guy you believe him to be. Yes, he is great AND he terrified, hurting and blaming YOU for moving things along too fast, when he participated in all of it 100%. Where is he taking responsibility for his part in this?? This is also a MAJOR red flag when someone points the finger and blames. From everything you told me, this guy is NOT set up emotionally to be in a relationship. He has so much fear, is emotionally fragile and is right…he needs to work through his past baggage. He not available for you and never was. This baggage he is carrying, has been there all along, but you both got swept away in all the romance, the gifts, the sex etc. that there is NO WAY for you to have seen any of this. This is why developing a connection SLOWLY is really important. It allows you to see the FULL picture first with the mindset of REQUIRING the other person to earn your heart, earn your attention, earn your respect, earn your time etc.He is also correct in that it is a red flag that you were willing to plan your whole future around him and you barely know him. You guys were not even in a committed relationship and the future talk, between both of you, was not appropriate for the stage you guys were in.
I know this is not what you want to hear right now. I know that the desperation to get him back is all consuming and that’s all you can think about. I know you are deeply hurting, so really letting what I have said – which is not about getting him back – into your mind and heart, is difficult.
The reason I have said everything I have, is because you are sooooo attached to one idea of him and not seeing the WHOLE person that he is. It’s like diving off a cliff, not knowing what’s beneath the water.
Your heart is sacred Sarah. It special, unique and deserved to be honored, respected, cared about and valued. To give your heart so fast and so freely, is NOT protecting yourself. It’s incredibly important to be discerning when getting to know someone. I use this analogy: Imagine you are the CEO of a company – the company is your heart. It is YOUR job to make sure that every single employee that is part of your company, is like-minded, supports your company, is invested in your company and truly becomes a part of the company. THAT TAKES TIME! Dating is the interview process. As the CEO, would you hire someone for such a valuable and delicate position after 1 or 2 conversations??? Even in the real world, when a company is hiring for a top level, important position, they do research first on the candidates. The candidates have to go through 3-4 interviews, the candidates start on probation so to speak and there is quite a process before someone is hired. With dating, it needs to be the same exact approach if you are going to find a good match. SEVERAL interviews, many dates to see them in different types of situations, a TON of conversations and so much more.
With how fast you rushed into opening your heart to this guy, I am wondering if this is a pattern or something new for you? Is this how you typically date? It sounds like you tend to have more sexual arrangements with guys vs. dating them and getting to know them. Yes? No? If yes, what’s the purpose in this design?
I’m in complete denial, feel such a deep shame What is this about? What do you feel ashamed about? If you were honest with your friends and family, what are you afraid they will say? You need them now, more than ever. You are hurting and need support. Are you not willing to let them into your life and help you right now?
Heidi
Hi Sarah,
I’m glad you are here! There is a lot to talk through about your situation. I can see why you are feeling a bit confused, so let’s dig through everything and see if you can find more clarity.
I want more from him, but I am unsure if I want to be in a committed relationship. What “more” do you want, exactly?
I am scared that by casually sleeping with this guy, I am setting myself up to be hurt again and sabotaging my well-being. Well done for doing the healing work after that unhealthy relationship you were in! It definitely is normal to feel fear as you enter into ANY agreement with someone. There is no way to avoid being hurt again, as that is just a part of dating. I can tell you from a lot of experience, that friends with benefits is a tricky design, especially the older you get. It’s tricky because women and experience “casual” in very different ways. I will tell you that it’s pretty impossible NOT to start to want more, when you connect as much as you guys do. With the daily texting combined with great sex, combined with open communication…that’s a recipe for a relationship. Casual typically means occasional texting, occasional sex, and dating other people. So although you guys call it casual, the behavior doesn’t align with that. So it IS a confusing situation because neither of you is really clear about what you want.
he stated after placing the “girlfriend” label, everything changes. This is a red flag here. This statement tells me that this guy has a hard time forgiving. He is placing you, and every other woman, in the same category as the woman or women who hurt him in the past. He hasn’t moved on, but instead has held onto whatever story he has about what happened and is using it to “protect” himself from going through it again. We all do this on some level, right? We all enter into relationships with past baggage, but the difference is, being aware of it, owning it and working on it OR make a statement like this guy who is avoiding doing the work to let go of th past. His statement is a victim statement. He is pointing the finger at the women saying it’s “their” fault instead of taking ownership for his side of things. BE CAREFUL! You just spent 6 years doing A LOT of work and A LOT of healing to let go of your past. You NEED to match with a guy who would be willing to do the same work on himself and I’m guessing he is not that type of guy. Has he ever worked with a therapist? Is he the type to face his fears, his hurt, his choices head on and take ownership of them? When this happens, things are great between us, but once he feels like he is becoming too close to me, he pulls away. Just curious, has he directly said this or is this an observation? Whenever you come across this type of behavior in other, or in yourself, you are dealing with a “split.” This just means that one part of him feels one way and another part feels another way and those parts will constantly be changing who is in the driver’s seat. There are a lot of different reasons for “splits” but one thing is true always….there isn’t unity, there isn’t alignment, there isn’t clarity – and when alignment is not present, it’s always confusing. Words and actions don’t align, or they do and then they don’t and it just becomes frustrating. Do you really want more from a guy who is already confused about you? You say that you don’t want to sabotage your well-being, yet your heart is getting involved with a guy who is emotionally unavailable – which is guaranteed heart break. Anyone who is “split” is emotionally unavailable. You deserve a guy who has NOTHING stopping him from wanting to know you, be with you, spend his day with you, share everything with you, be incredibly excited to get to be with you and most of all, a guy who does his own work! Your heart, your body, your soul, your heart, your being IS VALUABLE!!!! You are a sacred, beautiful person – Do you feel this guy sees you this way? Do you feel this guy has the skillset, knowledge, and emotional intelligence to hold your beautiful heart in his hands and WANT to take care of it??? Just some things to think about.
Heidi
LOL. Well, there is always A LOT to talk about, so let me know if you come up with any other questions or other thoughts you want to bounce around.
Heidi
In my case, my parents were so consistent and immediate that I sometimes expect if someone cares deeply about me, they will meet my needs. This makes a lot of sense. Sometimes, when parents meet too many of the needs, the child doesn’t develop a skillset of self soothing and independence and results in becoming co-dependent into adult years. It’s rare, as most parents end up being neglectful and super harmful, so I’m glad you got to experience the opposite, even though it brought you some challenges!
I just wanted to circle back to my question on choosing to be exclusive as a stepping stone to choosing to be in a relationship. If a man suggests this again in the future, what are ways you would suggest to handle that situation? I suggest that you set your own standards and what is comfortable for you. Personally, I am not interested in being exclusive with a guy who isn’t going to commit. Actually, that’s how most people function…exclusivity IS commitment (to most people) – so the way your guy was thinking, is very unusual and although it makes sense to him, it’s not very typical. I doubt you will run into this type of thinking again. Regardless, this is about YOU setting your standards and what you feel comfortable with and then supporting your standards when someone bumps up against them. I know you felt a strong connection with this guy and you went along with HIS way of thinking, but look how it ended up making you feel. You felt uncertain, you felt confused and you were wondering quite a bit, right? There was no real understanding between you guys. Although there was exclusivity, it didn’t change the confusion you felt. So I personally would say to a guy who wanted exclusivity but NO commitment, is I would say something like, “Okay! I understand this is how you want to get to know me. It’s not what is comfortable for me though. I will not close the doors to any other experience until we BOTH agree to commit and take our connection to the next level. So until that point, I will date you in a way that feels comfortable for me. I may decide to only focus my attention on you, or I may decide to go on other dates as well. I don’t know, but I will allow myself the freedom to decide, while we are getting to know each other. Is that okay for you?” That’s ME though. Those are MY standards, so you have to decide what feels good for you and not negotiate that away. The moment you start to negotiate away your needs in order to stay connected to a guy, you are betraying yourself – and that is NOT how you want to enter into a relationship. Does this help?
Heidi
I’m not sure how to quote unquote forgive This is a tricky and sticky subject for a lot of people. It’s very layered and can be quite the process, but it’s always do-able. I have yet to find a situation or person that I am not able to forgive. It begins with a choice that forgiveness is what you want. Forgiveness means you are letting go of the negative feelings/thoughts/energy towards the person and situation…including yourself in the equation. It does not mean forgetting…remembering is VERY important so you can keep protecting yourself, if need be. So let’s take the narcissist who destroys your work…forgiving that person is very important – letting go of any hurt, anger, frustration, betrayal etc. about that person and the situation – forgiving yourself for not being able to get your needs met like being able to protect yourself, keep your job, be seen for who you really are, being accepted and supported, be acknowledged for the good work you do etc…all the while, still remembering that this person is who they are and they will continue to do the same things, so protecting yourself is important too, as that is a loving thing to do for yourself.
So again, forgiveness begins with WANTING to let go of the anger, hurt, resentment etc. This sometimes can be tough, because our egos will want to hold onto those heavy feelings as a way of protecting our hearts. The process of forgiving is different for each person and each situation. I have several different approaches I use, depending on the situation. I have written angry letters and burned them, I have thrown eggs at a drawing or picture of someone, I have yelled into my pillow everything I wish I could say – so I basically begin by acknowledging and feeling my feelings in a safe and healthy way and then I let it go when I feel complete and make the very conscious choice to let go of the energy. I like using the Ho’oponopono prayer: I’m sorry, please forgive me, I love you, thank you. It’s a powerful ancient Hawaiin prayer for forgiveness. It’s much more extensive, but that’s the simple version. Here is a link if you want to learn a little more…https://hooponoponomiracle.com/ho-oponopono-hawaiian-forgiveness-prayer/
Most of the time, I am able to forgive through my methods, but sometimes, I need some help because I am triggered on a deeper level and I am wanting to hold onto my anger and my revengeful thoughts. I have a coach who holds me accountable and helps me work through a sticky situation that I am not able to release and let go of.
Does this help give you a starting point?
I love everything you are doing to care for yourself. Doing those kinds of “acts of self-love” on a daily basis, are really really important. What do you do to support and care for yourself when you’ve been hurt? This is the hardest kind of self-love, but extremely important. For example, I journal, I talk to the hurting part of myself and offer comforting words, I go into nature and do walking meditations / nature bathing, I make many lists of everything I am grateful for…there are so many ways to care for your hurting heart. This book has some good techniques to help during stressful times: https://www.michaelaboehm.com/the-book/
This is also a technique I use ALL THE TIME to help lessen the pain and hurt: https://eftuniverse.com/
I don’t know what you consider “affordable” so it’s hard to refer you to someone. Here is a great resource though, where all the books and programs are about healing, self-love, self-care etc.: https://www.hayhouse.com/ Browse through and see if anything or anyone seems to resonate for you and then learn what they are offering. Over the many years, I’ve had many, many teachers – some in person and some through their books or programs. I am always learning and growing and exploring everything out there – some stuff works amazingly well for my system and some have little impact and that’s how we learn about ourselves and what works – go explore and experiment.
On YouTube there are doctors saying you should never call out a narcissist and that basically they always shoot the messenger, which I have found to be true. But the alternative would have been working at a job where I was constantly anxious about my work being dismantled by the narcissist, which wouldn’t have been a doable situation for me because it took all the joy out of what I was doing and also didn’t make any sense for me to do the work if it was fine for someone just to come along and destroy it. Well…I understand why this is being said by those doctors – calling out a narcissist will not solve or change anything and most of the time will invite more harm into your life. AND…there is a point where you have to stand up to yourself as well…which is what you did. I’m not sure how you went about it, but regardless, it wasn’t feeling good to you and felt you needed to take action – so well done! You may have gotten fired, but it doesn’t sound like it was a job that was really supportive of you anyways. Now you have an opportunity to find a place that values and appreciates you! You deserve that!!!
but the local crisis center has said that they are interested in working with me to potentially host a support group for that. That’s really exciting, so I’m going to pursue it. This is fabulous!!!! Lord knows, you have PLENTY of experience and what a beautiful way to invite people together to learn a new skillset about how to navigate challenging people. One thing my friend does – and it’s changed everything for her – is she trained herself and her brain to associate bad looks, gossip or any of that crap, with a person who is in pain and needs some love. So if she gets a dirty look, she trained herself to instantly send them love from her heart. When someone gossiped about her, she imagined bubbles full of love, going around all the words and that when and if those words were spread, love would go with them – and then she sent love to the person. The truth is, anyone spreading hate, gossip, harm etc. – they are people that are deeply hurting and don’t know how to find their way out of it. It’s not an excuse by any means, but we all know what it feels like to be in so much pain, right? I can find compassion for someone’s pain and send them love and let the rest go. All that nastiness activates love in my friend’s heart now….not that she is perfect at it and it did take some time, but now…she is a completely different person and laughs so much more and she doesn’t let the negativity steal her joy. So if you can create a group of people who go out into the community and spread the love, that will definitely impact the yucky narcissism – you can make a HUGE impact and it sounds like you are excited about it too…even better!
Heidi
Hi Jadene,
I am so sorry to hear how things turned out for you. I know how badly you wanted things to really work out. I am glad you are okay too! ER visits are so scary.
Good job for saying no and disconnecting right away! That’s a huge first step. Loneliness can very easily cause a person to lower their standards just so they don’t have to feel lonely….which usually ends up being a big mess.
You have definitely been dealt a tough hand Jadene and my heart goes out to you. I have a friend who also has a lot of similar experiences as you where complete strangers just give her dirty looks and women, in particular, end up really going after her. It steals the joy out of the day and makes me so sad that people feel the need to cause harm and feel justified to cast their judgment onto someone else. Those kinds of people are very asleep and very unhappy. No one deserves to be treated the way people have treated you – it doesn’t matter what you have or have not done, the way we are going to heal all of this separation and judgment “disease” is to forgive and stop dishing out the hate – regardless of someone else’s actions or choices. I have lived through years of the darkest, most evil kind of acts people can do and I forgave and released it…and any time I get triggered again, I forgive again…because I don’t want what all those people did to me, to ruin the rest of my life. Unfortunately, that is not the outlook that most people have. Most people want to hold onto their anger, feel justified in their judgments and spread the toxicity…and then they affect you. I’m so sorry.
What kind of help would you like? The best guidance I could give you is to continue finding ways to clear all the pain and find the places you have not forgiven and still holding onto hurt. I have found that talk therapy is the least effective form of therapy for clearing the deep hurt. Have you ever tried EMDR or Brainspotting or hypnotherapy or IFS therapy?
I’m curious…how would you describe yourself? If you were writing a profile to meet new people (just friends, not romance) how would you describe yourself? On a scale of 0-10, 10 being the most loving, what number would you rate how much you love yourself overall?
Heidi
Hi Ashley,
Welcome! We are glad you are here! There is a lot to unpack here. First, it’s INCREDIBLY frustrating for anyone to be putting in more of the effort in the beginning, so I get your struggle. The things is…I don’t think I know anyone who hasn’t had some challenging experiences with dating. The way dating goes down these days…it’s more difficult than fun – the online world changed all of that…so for him to use that excuse is basically saying…I’m going to put all my past experiences of crap onto you and play it safe – instead of allowing you to have a clean slate and allow you to show him who YOU are. His fear is getting in the way, right? With that being said, we ALL come to the table with that kind of baggage, right? Fears from our past, but the difference between you and me and the next person, is how we deal with it. My point in telling you this, is it’s CRUCIAL that you really look at how he is handling this, because it’s a window into how he will handle stressful situations with you down the road (if you guys were to get together).
I understand you have chemistry with this guy and it feels great! AND….CHEMISTRY DOES NOT EQUAL COMPATABILITY. This is the hard part…that chemistry is so darn powerful and strong, that it’s very easy to get swept away and ignore the red flags – which from what you shared, there are some red flags here.
Tell me what you mean when you say that you tend to be “too much” in the beginning.
but I also want to put a fire in his butt to be more proactive in getting to know me. Really??? Are you sure you want to do this? Personally, if I EVER have the thought “I wish he would ask me questions. I wish I felt like he really wants to know me. I wish he would make more effort to get to know me…” that’s a BIG thing to pay attention to! I personally DO NOT ever want to spend any of my energy trying to get a guy to be more interested in me. I want a guy who has something organic and natural in him, that makes him reach out to me because he HAS to know me. I want a guy who has NOTHING stopping him from wanting to see me or talk to me. I want a guy who gets EXCITED to get to know me. Anything less than that, in my opinion, is a guy that is not worth my time. It doesn’t mean there is something wrong with the guy, it just means he doesn’t have eyes for me and I sure don’t want to spend any of my time trying to “make” him have eyes for me. I know that when the chemistry is there, it tells you to do something different, by like I already said…chemistry does not equal compatibility.
You are spending a lot of energy and focus on a guy you barely know, a guy who is not really emotionally available, a guy that keeps you at a distance, a guy who is making you wait for quite a long time – if he were your friend, wouldn’t you get frustrated to wait for 3-4 days to get a reply??? Texting takes less than 10 seconds. The truth is, this guy is not very engaged and like he said in the beginning, he wants things to move slow – which he gets to do of course AND he also has to honor that there IS a certain speed that helps keeps a woman engaged – and for YOU…his pace does not work – and that’s okay.
All the other guys lost interest and I don’t want this to happen again. Let’s talk about this…what do you think it means about you that these other guys lost interest in you? The way you make it sound, it seems like you believe you were missing something or it was your fault somehow they lost interest. Is this what you believe?
Heidi
When I asked him what he needed to see that he hadn’t seen yet to feel comfortable entering a relationship, he said, “I don’t know. You tend to lead with your thoughts. I tend to lead with my feelings, and I need a couple of days to understand the thought behind the feeling. Let’s talk about this again on X day.” If you really look at what he is saying, he is contradicting himself. He points the finger at you for “leading with your thoughts” and then claims he leads with his feelings, yet he has to “think” about what he is feeling. Do you see the discrepancy here? Which is totally okay, but it’s just another sign of how unclear he was. Besides, leading with feelings is dangerous, as FEELINGS ARE NOT FACTS. Feelings are just a story that our MIND creates about whatever is happening, and that story comes from our experiences of the past. So leading with feelings can be dangerous because of how misleading they are! Feelings lead people into situations ALL THE TIME that are coming from a place of fear or woundedness and NOT from clarity. Let’s take you for example…your VERY STRONG feelings of wanting to be in a committed relationship and have kids and that you are running out of time…they are strong enough that they are leading you into situations that are not working AND those feelings act as a blinder and prevent you from have CLEAR sight about all the dynamics in the relationship. Does this make sense?
Many dating situations that start off strong but quickly fizzle out before they become committed relationships. I have never been in a committed relationship, and I am 35, so I have a lot of pain associated with that thought. It’s something I have worked on with coaches and therapists over the years. I understand that when I think that way, it puts so much pressure on something new with someone — that if it doesn’t work out, I’m making it mean something big about my ability to have a committed relationship. I know logically that my past history is no indication of my ability to have a solid relationship in the future. But that insecurity never totally goes away. And I guess I also feel like I am losing time if I want to have kids, so I really want things to work out. There is something much deeper going on here. What happens in our adult life, the choices we make and how we design our life, is shaped from our childhood and role models growing up. I imagine your therapist would have helped you connect to your childhood experiences that would shape your romantic experiences…yes? no?
Heidi
Yikes! That is really intense what happened with your cat! Holy smokes! Poor thing! I’m glad you bonding and healing together.
You feel the depression is not to the point of needing therapy? That’s an interesting response. Personally, any level of depression that stops me from enjoying my life, is worth dealing with. You are so full of disappointment and depression that you have lost your passion and vibrancy for life. So…at what point do you think you will actually need some help them? Do you think you need to be a lot worse to the point of not functioning? The thing is, you believe that time and effort will do, but that’s not true. All that happens over times, is feelings get buried, only to return later on when someone or something triggers you. Your depression will get activated again and again and again. It’s kind of like having a dirty drain. Gunk builds up and eventually, it gets so blocked that it clogs and is not useable and then you need a professional to come in and deal with a more serious problem – but had you decided to clean your pipes along the way, you’d be much better off. Probably not the best analogy….lol.
But the loneliness could get someone to show some empathy and give a listening ear I guess. Since I feel like no one cares enough to listen. So you want other people to care about you, but you won’t care enough about yourself to get help? That sure is putting a lot of responsibility on others instead of empowering yourself and taking ownership of your own well-being. Your happiness and well being is 100% in your hands. So what are you willing to do to help yourself? You are going through a lot right now. Why not reach out for help?
Heidi
