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(Had a good dinner – ate out! lol 🙂 )
Reflections – not sure I understand what you’re saying there. There’s no way, I can figure out what’s in somebody else’s subconscious! Still figuring out how to connect with my own!
I’ll tell you about that lady, so you can tell me what to look for – She came to work at the store for a few months, she worked at the Front desk, which put her in a position one level above the cashiers. She was in charge of all that happened at the front of the store, including keeping it organized and all the returned stuff put away. (her part was to assign sections and see that all the stuff is organized and taken back to their sections – not to actually do it herself). I’m guessing, she was about my age or a few years younger. I was also one of the front desk supervisors, and it was all good. Till she started to get bossy.
When I started working at the store, all those who were working at the front desk, were young enough to be my kids. I had ZERO problems with being told what to do. But when Bossy started giving orders, it was entirely different. She rubbed EVERYONE the wrong way. In fact, if she made the mistake of telling us what to do, we deliberately avoided doing it! I know, totally juvenile. But that’s what she triggered in us. We even told the managers why we weren’t doing our jobs – lol 🙂
Now, here’s the thing – I tell people what to do all the time, including some of those original kids who were working at the store before I was. And NOBODY has a problem doing what I tell them! On the flip side, I have no trouble doing whatever is asked of me either, so much so, that when one of our assistant managers was introducing a new cashier to me, he said: “This is Vino, she knows all about the yarn, and she does whatever she’s told.” 🙂 It was funny. It was completely true. And I wasn’t in the slightest offended. In fact, I felt complimented. So… what was it about Bossy, that reflected any of us?! We were SO glad when she left! She created an air of tension as soon as she walked into the store.
And you’re right about gossip – I’ve heard men do it too, just not as much as the women. And I have a tendency to do it as well, so I had to keep a close watch on everything I said, to make sure it was my story to tell. I do still talk about others. I make sure it’s something that is necessary though – like when my coworkers start complaining about the managers… sometimes I have inside information of why they’re doing what they’re doing… and I share that to create understanding. Like when a previous manager was stressed out with the scheduling restrictions because corporate wouldn’t let him hire more than one full time person for the front desk position. So, whenever I heard people complaining about their schedules, i’d show them the flip side of the story, so they’d go easy on the manager. Or if they’re complaining about an unreasonable co-worker and I know what’s going on, I tell them, “She has a lot going on right now, she’s stressed out”. But, it’s definitely, enticing, to listen to and to share little private secrets you happen upon!
Your final point – relying on oneself – when I wish to share about a struggle… there’s no desire there to change the other person. I have always offered my ability to listen, to the women in my life. and yes, I expected them to be able to return the favor. But I always tested them first, to see if they were able to listen like I needed them to. So, i’d observe how they treated their children. If they were consistently kind and generous towards their kids, I could trust them more. Then, i’d test them with something that didn’t bother me a whole lot and it wouldn’t matter if they listened or not. Most failed there, so it never got any further than that. There was one lady that I shared a lot with, just before I got married. I found it easy to talk to her about things i’d never talked to anyone about. Then, 3 yrs later, when I was going through some really difficult times, and I had a chance to visit her, she deliberately steered the conversation away from the matter at hand, every single time. She admitted it to my then husband – I thought I was imagining it, and I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. So, I was even afraid to bring it up at all, and I just blurted it out, I said – it felt like she was avoiding me. and he said she was.
so, that’s that. I don’t understand why it’s wrong to expect someone to listen to you, if they say they’re your friend. I do it for them, so why shouldn’t they do it for me? So, I don’t even try anymore, no matter how much someone pours out their heart to me, I don’t go to them in return. It’s not worth the trouble, is it? I’ve got strangers online to talk to 😉
yes, that was a bitter statement. my sharing life is very lopsided. My super strong friends – the original ones who were able to and willing to listen to such a degree that they convinced me I was a human worth being a friend to – they never shared any of their struggles with me, because, I was obviously the weak one in the relationship. So, the sharing was one way – they knew my life inside out, and theirs was (and is) a total mystery to me. And now, I have people who share with me, and they have no idea what’s going on inside of me. Once again, it’s a one-way sharing.
Is that the way it is supposed to be? or are there relationships in which there’s a mutual sharing and supporting of each other? It seems to me, that in an equal relationship, such a thing could be possible, so that both people take turns being vulnerable and weak and both take turns being strong and protecting.
maybe just another fairy tale.
~ vino
Hi Heidi!
Thanks for spending so much time on me!
Weakness – Best way that I can think of how to explain what I mean by it is by sharing my own weakness. I was working as a home health aide. I was very good at it. I had the ability to listen to the old folks, and I made an effort to understand where they were coming from without judging anything they said. Plus, i was curious, about what made it worth their while to get out of bed every day, when they’d lost so much of their independence. After 3 years of being an excellent companion, I found out, I couldn’t do it anymore. I dreaded each day. I particularly hated it, when they started to talk. I was no longer a good friend. I quit the job. What had happened?
The amount of stress I was under, at home had escalated. I hadn’t yet worked out how to get rid of my stress. I wasn’t able to leave my home-stress at home… I took it with me everywhere I went. So… I wrote a lot and created more charts and diagrams… I need to see what’s in my head. I came up with a good picture that was simple enough for me to carry around – 10 boxes. Each box for one thing that creates stress. The goal is to start the day with all 10 boxes empty, because you’re going to naturally pick up things during the day. And every evening, you empty out the boxes. Since the mind and body are intricately woven together, taking care of the body, helps empty out some of those boxes. So, eating well, sleeping enough and exercising, all help to empty the boxes. Writing things down, prioritizing the things that need my attention, and focusing on the most important tasks each day… that helps de-stress as well. As I got better at de-stressing myself, I got better at listening again – because I had enough empty boxes with me.
Anyway – all this to say – I became a weak person – unable to bear my own burdens, much less the burdens of another – when I allowed stress to overwhelm me. The ‘weak’ people in my life, choose to remain weak, because, I think they like to have something to complain about. Generally, it’s women who are like that, but there are many men like that as well. I’m not sure how I can tell they’re ‘weaker’ than me.. I’m guessing I pick up subtle signs, because there was a time when I preferred to remain weak as well.
Crying – is a totally different kind of weakness. It’s the same kind of weakness that a body experiences when it has the flu. It needs to be taken care of and protected, so it can rest and heal. In order to do that, someone else has to step in and take care of those priority items on your list – get the kids to school on time, walk the dog, get dinner – so you have a peaceful, protected space, in which you can cry and detox your soul. There’s nothing quite as destructive to the crying space as a child walking in and demanding food. Or the adult who could hold a space for you, is too weak, or doesn’t care. So, I had to create my own space and then cry in it. It was usually night time, in the basement. But the big cries that came with the wailing, happened during the day, when the kids were away at school, and I was alone at home. I would cut down all the things on my list, down to the 3 that I mentioned – and give myself time – ‘get dinner’ didn’t mean I cooked. It just meant there was something edible in the house. I didn’t have time, to plan a meal, buy the stuff, prepare and cook and clean. I needed the time, to heal. Which meant, I needed time and space to cry. I was too weak, to do anything more than the 3 things on my list, which were my ‘non-negotiables’. Of course, ideally, I wouldn’t have had to worry about the non-negotiables either. That’s where the resentments built up. I really, really, really, just needed to recover. But I couldn’t set down my responsibilities for a single day. I weakened physically because of that. When I walked the dog, I had to rest every 10 minutes. I would sit down, where ever I was. Just couldn’t move. Since I could only cry at a certain time, I had to hold it in the rest of the time. So I resented that man in my life, for just crying anytime he wanted to. and despised him, for being so weak.
So, if I were to cry in front of someone else, I would have to be able to trust that I can fully rest in their presence, and not have to think about the things that need my attention, I would need to know, that they’ll have my back, and that they’ll keep watch, while I take a break. And since I don’t know what kind of a crying will come out of me, I need to feel safe to trust them with that too. So, they’d need to be strong enough to handle my weakness, no matter what it looks like. Haven’t met that person yet.
(Need to feed the kids, will respond to the rest later!) 🙂
~ vino
Reflections – Yes, this is something I discovered many years ago, and it has brought me much healing and understanding of myself. I first became aware of it in nursing school, when I found myself connecting with some people in a very deep way. Two of them, were female psychiatric patients. One was an outpatient, who had come with her husband and mother-in-law, and her symptoms were random episodes of convulsions. So, the doctor told her to lie still for a while and breath slow and deep, because she wanted to observe a convulsion. In about 3 minutes, the lady had an episode and her family freaked out, and so did I and the other student nurse with me. She told the family that the convulsions were fake and told them to go home. We were surprised at her diagnosis – and she told us, that a real seizure cannot be brought on just by lying down and breathing slowly. But, that night, I couldn’t sleep. I saw the woman’s side of the story (which we didn’t know, because the doctor never took the time to ask). She’d come with her husband and her mother-in-law… not with her own mother or sibling… essentially, she was alone. Indians (in general) aren’t known to take good care of the daughters-in-law. Why was she faking convulsions? She was taking back control… she was escaping… she was protecting herself… and the doctor (a female one) – in one thoughtless swoop, had totally destroyed the safe place that this woman had so painstakingly created for herself. I still hurt for her when I think of her.
The other was also a woman. She had been in admitted many months ago, and there was never any progress in her condition. She was in a stupor. She was always neatly dressed, and her hair properly combed, sitting at the foot of her bed, when we got there. We asked around to find out who helped her get dressed, but nobody knew. She was completely unresponsive. They had tested her responses to all kinds of things, even pain, and she had remained completely oblivious. But I was so drawn to her. I knew, I simply knew, that she was so fully aware of everything going on around her, and everything that was being done to her. I would hang around and talk to her, as if she could hear and understand. Then one night, I had a terrified thought – what if she listened, and came out to talk to me? She would be like a child who had been gone for along time, she would need help to get back into her life with her family – if she wanted, and if not? Where would she go? What would she do? I was there for only 2 weeks. I couldn’t be there, the way she would need. So I left her there, lost in herself, where she was safer. And it broke my heart. It still does, when I think of her, because I know, that nobody is so lost that they cannot be found. They just need someone who still remembers them, and can be there for them, and make it safe for them to come out, and help them relearn how to live their life.
On occasion, I thought I was imagining things, because I do not know their true stories. But over the years, I saw more stories like that… and at some point, I realized that what I saw, may or may not have been true about them… but it was certainly true about me! I was seeing bits and pieces of myself in them. Kind of like looking at a group photo with a hundred people in it, and you can’t make out anybody’s face, except your own… your subconscious recognizes itself, no matter how faded and faint, and it’s always looking for itself, it doesn’t care about the others. So, whenever i’m drawn to a person, I look at them carefully, to see what it is that they are reflecting of me. And I have found myself in both men and women. However, not EVERY person is a reflection of me, or carries a reflection of me. Even if she causes strong reactions in myself.
There was a lady at work who rubbed me the wrong way. I learn a lot from people who trigger strong responses in me… because I test my own behavior against theirs, to see if I too behave that way. But this one… she triggered everyone. She was causing the opposite reaction in people than I do. So she wasn’t a reflection of me. There’s another lady at work whom I befriended. She didn’t make many other friends. I too, judged her negatively when I first saw her. She was overweight, and she was slow, and she was unhappy about her lot in life. I wondered how many people saw me the way I saw her over the course of my life. So, I decided to toss my negative judgments, and befriend her, just as I had always wanted to be befriended myself. She accepted my friendship. I did whatever I could to make the store a happy place for her, like it was for me. Her face would light up whenever she saw me. And the first time I saw her unguarded smile, she looked so beautiful to me, and I went away thinking I really want to make people smile! But I also thought – I wonder if I look beautiful too, when I smile from my heart like she just did…?
You said: So when you are wanting a woman to listen to you, you are wanting her to do this FOR you instead YOU listening to you and meeting your own needs.
I’ll have to think about that and see if it rings true. I was reminded of another reason I don’t trust women – women gossip. If they talk to me about others, even if it’s a ‘harmless little tidbit’, they cannot be trusted. Women talk to me all the time. Why? Do they want me to do something for them that they should be doing for themselves?
Are we equipped to meet all our own needs? I came here for help, and you gave it to me. How is that different with women I know in real life? I do have a lot more women friends now than I used to a few years back – women I’ve become friends with at work. We even got together a few days back, just to hang out and talk. But I don’t share my struggles with them. None of them knows of my new adventures with men! I find that to be too private & personal to share with them. I”m not afraid of what they’ll think… I know they won’t think bad of me. But… it’s just a side of my life that they don’t know about, and I have felt no desire to share it with them.
Your thought, that I feel the same way about myself as I do about other women… that’s most likely true. That’s why I try to see myself through the eyes of a man. But, i’m learning to trust myself, more and more. 🙂
Thanks for the good discussion! 🙂
~ vino
Hi Heidi!
Thanks for taking the time to read all that I write and for your thoughtful responses!
I had to re-read what i’d written previously to remember what i’d said about emotions. I don’t see what you saw – that I defined emotions as weak? What was it that I said that sounded that way? But then, I USED to think being emotional was weak.
Here’s what I have learned about emotions in the last 10 years – Emotions are neither weak nor strong. They just are. They are reactions and responses we have to our experiences. When we are infants, we only know two things – one feeling makes us uncomfortable, the other makes us feel good. All uncomfortable experiences make us cry. As we get older, we learn to distinguish between the things we experience, and we know we are hungry or sleepy or in pain. We tend to only cry for pain, and unless the hunger gets severe, we don’t cry about it. In an ideal world, we will keep on learning how to define and distinguish between all of our feelings and learn how to deal with each one appropriately. So we learn to distinguish between different bad feelings – humiliation, disrespect, insulted, bullied, etc. Anger – is a biggie. It can be super intense, and not many people know how to express it in healthy ways. Counting to 10 is most unhelpful!
At any rate – I read somewhere, that women, since they are seen as emotional to begin with, have the freedom to express their emotions without judgement, and therefore, they get to experience and exercise their emotions more fully, and perhaps in healthier ways than men do. Men don’t get to use their emotions as freely, so they’re not as good as women are, in expressing their emotions effectively or accurately. So, they tend to hold it in till it pops. For me, I held my emotions in, because I didn’t feel safe or comfortable expressing them. So, how I see emotions now – they are normal reactions and responses – and they actually enrich your life, if you know how to express them in healthy ways.
I didn’t have a good understanding of crying. It appeared weak to me. It looked like something that one did if they weren’t strong enough to take the abuse, or if they wanted to escape something unpleasant. The guy I was married to, he cried a lot. At first, I thought it was cool that he was in touch with his emotions. Then, he started to uses his tears to escape unpleasant conversations with me, and would start beating himself up with his words: “I’m such a failure, I can’t do anything right, I don’t deserve any good things…” etc. And I would have to stop talking about the issue I wanted to work out with him and start comforting him and tell him he wasn’t a failure – and point out the good things he did. After about 3 times of that, I got disgusted every time he cried. I’d just walk away and let him stew in his own misery. But here’s the thing… there were times when I wanted to cry too, because I was sorry for my part in the mess… but he always cried first, and I had to be the strong one to balance things off. I resented that. I resented having to be the strong one all the time. I wanted to be able to put down my burdens and have a good cry too! But in order to do that, I needed someone who wouldn’t crumble at the same rate or faster than me, and who could hold it together just a little bit longer than me, so I could be held for once, and know what it feels like to receive comfort! (yes, I am getting angry as I talk about it).
Anyway. I learned how to cry alone. I had to get over looking at myself as weak and disgusting. I would always test my tears to see if I had legitimate reason to cry, and that I wasn’t using it as an excuse to avoid responsibility or beating myself up as a total failure – because I didn’t want to cry like him! But then, in testing and analyzing my tears, I wasn’t freeing myself to cry. So, I had to stop testing, and just accept that my body and heart, needed to cry for whatever reason. Interestingly, for several weeks after I gave myself permission to cry, I didn’t just cry, but I wailed. I had to stick my face in a pillow so the neighbors wouldn’t come to see what was going on. My whole body cried. Some sessions lasted over an hour, at the end of which I was physically exhausted, like I had a full body workout. The sounds that came out of me were terrifying. Sometimes, i’d have a short nap afterwards. Other times, it felt like the sun was coming out after a storm, and i’d be smiling for no reason. I just let everything happen, and didn’t try to figure things out. Gradually, my weeping sessions reduced in intensity, in duration and in frequency, and then, they were gone. it’s been years now, and although I cry on occasion, it’s a quick short cry for whatever caused it at the moment. the cries that were locked up for all the previous years of my life are gone.
I don’t think it takes a lot of strength to express emotion. My mom’s family, are very emotional, male and female alike. They don’t think twice about exposing all of their feelings. But it wasn’t a sign of strength. If it were, I would’ve felt safe with them. But their emotions were overwhelming. Like too much of a good thing… 10 teaspoons of sugar in your tea WLL make you gag! I think it takes strength to control your emotions and express them appropriately. My dad’s family was stoic. Nobody could tell what anyone was feeling. That was their way respecting each other’s space. They weren’t good at expressing their emotions or helping others express themselves. But, they sure sounded a lot less explosive than my mom’s family, so I preferred their shut in ways and saw it as ‘better’. Of course, I never felt any safer there either, because it was almost like feelings were unwelcome.
I guess, to summarize, giving in to your emotions, or losing control of them – that’s what is weak.
But, I completely agree with you, that the depth of pain you experience determines the height of joy you experience.
Hi Heidi!
Please send me the info of your coach. And thanks or telling me about EMDR. Never heard of it before!
And thanks for a fabulous question that has never been posed to me before! I totally enjoyed pondering it while at work. 🙂
I have a few things that I was able to sort out, from my web of tangled experiences, I believe they are the main ones – These are based on my personal interactions with the men & women in my life:
1. Women assume they know how I feel simply based on the fact that I’m a woman. So, every time I tried to talk about a problem, they jumped ahead, and failed to listen. Men don’t assume they know how I feel, so that ended up making them better listeners.
2. Women love to give advice. I hate advice, especially unsolicited advice. When I was pregnant for the first time, every single woman I knew, wanted to share with me how they handled their pregnancies, even if i didn’t know them very well! WHY??????????!!!!!!!!!!!! The men have been far more respectful of me, only offering advice if i sought it.
3. Women also assume they ‘know’ you, again, simply because we’re both women. When i tried to talk to one of my friends about problems in my marriage, she assumed it was sexual, and told me men need more sex, so i should make allowances for that. I never finished telling her what i wanted to. What would she have thought if she knew, that the sexual problem was the other way round in my marriage??!! lol 🙂
4. That’s the other thing – women finish your thoughts for you or think they know your problem because they faced a similar one, and they’re so full of wanting to share that within minutes of me bringing up my problems, we’d soon be talking about them and their problems. I don’t talk to people i don’t matter to.
5. Women do not respect men. that was one of the BIGGEST reasons i couldn’t talk to anyone about my marriage problems, because a standard response was, “I understand, men are like that”. And i totally disagreed with them! REAL MEN aren’t like ‘that’!!!! I only wanted to talk about my problems with ONE man, not slam all men! But it would so quickly turn into a conversation tearing down men. Men, on the other hand, DO respect women. (real men).
6. The way women sympathize/empathize – makes me feel pathetic and weak. Men know how to show compassion, in a way that strengthens me. I’ve been trying to understand the difference here – and the best i can come up with so far is – the men knew how to create a safe space for me, in which my emotions were the only ones that had to be dealt with. The women, even if they managed to make me feel safe enough to share an emotion, would fill the space with versions of their own emotions, so mine got lost in it. Since i wasn’t good at expressing my emotions, i needed a space that was free from the influence of the emotions, judgements, opinions, experiences and wisdom of others, so i could sort out my own. The men were naturally able to do that, because they’re good at holding their emotions at bay. I valued their ability to dissect my emotions, with the kind of questions they asked, which helped me understand my own emotions. They didn’t try to direct my thoughts. Or give advice. They also NEVER burdened me with their own problems, when i was sharing mine. If that isn’t respect, then i don’t know what is!
7. Women are weaker than i am. I cannot lean on someone who is weaker. I don’t lean on men who are weaker either. I am very picky.
8. I like figuring things out on my own. Women don’t give me a chance, because they love to ‘share’. Men just ask questions, which actually helps me figure things out on my own, and even if they did direct my thoughts with the kind of questions they asked, it doesn’t bother me as much as having the answers tossed at me.
9. Last one – i haven’t experienced this. But… if i ever got weak enough or safe enough to cry in someone’s presence, i’d rather it be a man, because i wouldn’t mind being held by a man, but i would recoil at the touch of a woman.
That’s what i have so far. 🙂 Thanks for an excellent question!! Totally enjoyed it! 🙂
~ vino
After the last message, I was pondering if there was any woman I wanted to be like, and only one comes to mind – have you watched ‘Howl’s Moving Castle’? A fairytale, about a girl, who is plain and quiet and simple, and works in her father’s old hat shop. She gets cursed, and is turned into an old woman. The way she handles her new life, after her initial emotional outburst, is totally inspiring and every time we watch the movie, I cannot help but say out loud – “I want to be like Sophie”. Other than her, I haven’t felt inspired by any other woman, real or fictitious. My role models have always been male.
I have been on the look out for another therapist, but it’s getting harder to find someone whom I feel can lead me further than I get to on my own. I haven’t considered looking for male therapists though. I am finding books, CD’s of seminars, and random articles a lot more helpful at this point, because I’ve found that I can apply a basic principle to several levels of my existence, so the things i’m learning, don’t need to be directly related to my exact experiences. I have two books i’m eager to get into – ‘Women who love too Much’ and the one that Kanya suggested – “Reclaiming and Healing your inner child” – I noticed a whole bunch of other books by the same author – John Bradshaw – and they all sounded interesting, so I may eventually get into all of them.
I’ve learned a lot about myself from my exchanges with you as well! So, thank you, for listening and for all of your helpful feedback!
Actually, just about every person who happens into my life, opens my eyes to a bit more about myself… like all the men who addle my brain. lol 🙂
And thanks for your encouraging words too. 🙂
~ vino
Hi Heidi!
Yes, the belly dancing classes are online. The lady who put them together, is an hour away, and it would take me a minimum of 3 – 4 hours to make room for a class with her, but I do intend to attend her classes after I’ve practiced some of the basics. Interestingly, quite a lot of the mobility exercises I’ve been doing since the summer, match up with the belly dancing basics, so, i’m actually a step ahead of where I thought i’d be. lol 🙂
And, yes, I have worked through my issues with women. It’s far from resolved, but I do know where it comes from. For 3 years, i went to a psychiatrist, and she diagnosed me as bipolar, with longer periods of depressive episodes. I was extremely weak, mentally & emotionally, and the only reason i went was because a friend i trusted (male), said I should go. I remember, only one clear thought in my head when i chose her… it would have to be a woman, because i was in danger of getting emotionally attached and dependent on any male, and she’d have to be available to see me right away. She was perfect for me, and was willing to work with me to get off meds as soon as possible. She did her own counseling as well, so there was no need to look for a second person to talk to. At any rate, once my bipolar symptoms came under control, deeper symptoms surfaced. She diagnosed me as having been sexually abused. I had very few memories to go on, so i needed her to tell me that some of things she saw in me, she only saw in others who were also sexually abused. BUT… I was first abused by women. And there’s a distinct difference between those who’ve been sexually abused by women, vs men. However, nobody can imagine in their minds that women can sexually abuse children, so IT’S NEVER BEEN STUDIED!!! my doctor went on a quest and found ONE BOOK – on the topic. It was a collection of stories from those abused by women. Its’ worse for the boys – first, nobody believed them, secondly, they were told to enjoy the attention if it truly was happening! The girls – experienced the same things that i did – inability to relate to women AND – not knowing how to instinctively love and care for their own children.
When i had children, i was terrified, because i couldn’t FEEL anything towards them. So, i had to think of every action, every word, to make sure it wouldn’t hurt them. I had one goal with them – that they needed to know i loved them (even if i couldn’t feel it) – and they needed to be free of my handicaps. So i worked at making sure, i never shared my opinions and strong feelings with them, and simply gave them the space to figure things out for themselves. They both have healthy relationships with both men and women, who are good people. I am proud of them for the kind of relationships they’ve built, and i am proud of myself for ending the abuse with me, and for not passing on the ‘lessons’ i’d learned, through a broken mind. It wasn’t until i was in my 30s that i broke free… i hated that i couldn’t hug my children. My body was rejecting all kinds of physical contact and couldn’t tell the difference between an innocent hug from a child and an abusive touch. So, my goal became to be able to freely hug my children. It took a few years, during which time i continued to force myself to hug them whenever they came in for a hug, and then one day, i didn’t have to force myself, i truly embraced them, and it was the best day of my life! Now, my son, doesn’t hug as much, but my daughter, she lets me hold her… if she’s happy, or if she’s sad, or for no reason at all. Every hug, is a victory for me! And both my kids, know how deeply i love them… and it’s so deep and solid, that we can get mad at each other, and never doubt that we love each other! (which doesn’t happen often, but it’s nice to have that to fall back on).
I stopped going to the psychiatrist when i got the feel that she was trying to ‘mother me’. My mother, didn’t abuse me sexually. Her’s was an emotional abuse that was rooted in her inability to connect with me on an emotional level, and she thought she could poke me into feeling things (as did her entire family, who are very emotional beings). So, i was verbally abused a lot, and the harsher it got the harder i became, and that in turn triggered them to try harder to break me. I’ve never cried in front of anyone. I felt my tears surface during ONE session, with my doctor, and i quickly rebalanced myself, and swallowed it. i take that back…my friend from nursing school has seen me cry – when we heard the news that my dad had died, she was with me. She was the only one i didn’t brace myself against. i didn’t sob, i just had a wet face constantly. Dad hadn’t been sick, he’d died in an electrical accident. He was 54 and very healthy. I didn’t cry in front of my mother, or let her hold me. I couldn’t hold her either.
Anyway – the way i dress – my parents wouldn’t let me wear pants or jeans, wouldn’t let me cut my hair short. I went through phases of not knowing what to wear and would either wear only dresses or only pants. Every time i went into one phase i would empty my wardrobe of all the things i had decided not to wear. My last overhaul was in favor of pants, so i got rid of all my dresses. Dresses make me feel vulnerable and exposed and unsafe. the way i carry my body changes when i wear a dress – the tension increases, and i brace myself, as if i’m getting ready for a fight. So, in a dress, i stand and walk in a very masculine way! I can feminize pants if i want to, with a flowy tunic or a flowery t-shirt. For now, that’s enough femaleness to handle without bracing. I did want to go shopping though, and try on some dresses, just for fun 🙂 My hair is the only part of me that I’ve never wanted to masculinize. It’s shoulder length, and not waist length anymore. But it’s also curly now, and that makes me feel softer and more feminine without threatening me. I’ve also changed my voice – from short, monosyllabic grunts, to a softer, kinder, gentler voice. Kind and Gentle, are traditionally considered female, but i experienced them first from men, who weren’t in any way feminine. So, it appears strong to me, and not weak. I see emotional outbursts and lack of self control as a weakness – and more women are like that than men. That’s not a quality i wish to develop – at least, not in public. I’ve noticed that the masculine men in my life can cause me to lose my emotional balance! (if i trust them, and feel safe with them).
I do not like being referred to as a mother. At work, i provide whatever support i can, to everyone i work with. There was this one poor girl, who was riddled with anxiety, and i spent a lot of time with her, trying to help her get a grip. And she appreciated all i did for her, except that, she said: “You’re like a mother to me” and i felt the rage rise in me and i wanted to do or say something really harsh to destroy that thought in her head. Thankfully, i go totally mute when intense emotions rage within me, and i also realized, it was more about me than her, and i needed to work on it. I can be a friend, i can be a big sister, and that doesn’t trigger me. I can’t be a ‘mother’ to anyone other than my two kids. i hate mothers day, on the days that it falls on my birthday! 🙂 That’s why my doctor wanted to work on my ‘mother’ issues. She said, ‘You’ve never experienced ‘mothering’ as a positive thing.’ and i recoiled, because the way she said it, it felt like she was going to find a way for me to experience positive mothering, and that’s the last thing i needed in my life!
So, that’s where it all comes from. I cannot follow in the footsteps of another women, even a strong one, like Wonder Woman. I need to define my own femininity, even if i do end up behaving and living like a Wonder Woman, or a Warrior Princess like Mulan – i do not wish to do it the way they did it. I avoid reading about successful women, because i want my ideas to be my own, and not influenced by other women. My gut reaction is to reject anything that comes from a woman. I need to distance myself, in order to be able to listen to a woman. It’s a lot of work. Sometimes i don’t have the energy or strength for it. so, i shut down when i’m recovering. I do accept myself as a woman though, and that took a long time as well. I was ok with being a ‘girl’. But it was much harder to accept womanhood. I wasn’t able to say: I am a woman. Now i can. 🙂
~ vino
LOL 😀 I suppose I Have had an adventurous life online 😀
I never met my UK guy in person – it was too complicated to plan a trip to Europe that year. I tried! I wanted to meet him, even though I knew it wouldn’t work Long term. But I did meet two others whom i’d gotten to know around the same time. The one, whom I call my Little Brother, I connected with so deeply, as if i’d known him all my life. And when we met, it was still true, and we both felt it, like we were family, even though we don’t know every detail about each other, there’s a trust that’s so deep and unshakeable and unquestioned. The other guy I met, I had never connected so deeply with, it was more like an acquaintance, and it was the same connection that we had in person – we spent an afternoon together, exploring NYC, shopping, dining, and parted as – acquaintances. Same thing with a younger woman I made friends with – we were able to carry our connection from the internet to real life. I think, if you’re honest and open in your communications, you get a solid feel for the other person. Looking for a romantic connection might be what causes a problem, because then, you have a goal of sorts – you’re looking for, or desiring chemistry, because you’re mentally attracted to the person, and you want your body to agree with your mind, so you put yourself under stress.
Anyway… I was making a list of things I want to learn and do …. and guess what?? Dancing was on my list! Not for getting in touch with my female side – but because – it’s been a dream of mine from the time I was little… there’s this deep longing in me, to want to move gracefully. I’ve always been clumsy. Physically, the only thing I was admired for was my strength, so, I prided myself on opening jars that all the women in the family couldn’t open and other such things, as if I were a boy! I wasn’t as strong as a real boy though, so I sort of felt like I fell into a space between male and female and couldn’t fit in well with either. Men always treated me more kindly, so it became very easy for me to see things through a man’s point of view, and I distanced myself further from the women in my life, and women in general. In fact, there’s so many things that women complain and worry about, that’s completely incomprehensible to me.
My best friend in nursing school – she was the first girl I became close to. But she’d often say things that I couldn’t understand. She’d say, “I feel like I don’t know you, like your heart is unreachable.” I didn’t even understand what she meant by that! Now I do. I was emotionally, very distant. The only emotions that I ever trusted her with, with happiness or anger. Everything else – sadness, pain, uncertainty, worries, etc – were all weaknesses that I automatically hid. It wasn’t until we left school, that she told me of all the things she hid from me, because she couldn’t trust me to just listen and not try to fix things! I still can’t share my ‘weak’ emotions with women, unless I’ve already worked through them, and have them sorted out, and have a handle on them. If I were to meet you in person, I wouldn’t be able to share any of the things I’ve shared here!
So… going back to dancing… I’ve never felt ashamed of my desire to dance… but… I’ve never told anyone about it. I want to learn it first. And I bought my first belly dancing lessons – about a month ago… there’s no classes near me. But … it was JB who drove me into buying that! No, he didn’t tell me to do it… he just caused that part of me to resurface. First time I got a mani/pedi – was when I was talking to the UK guy! And I did it again… several weeks ago, came across an old nail polish bottle and found myself painting my nails! lol 🙂
The other class I really want to join is a Krav Maga class! I got that from another guy on that dating site! We didn’t talk a whole lot about other things though, so I just got launched on my journey to Krav Maga, and disconnected with him, but I might write back to him after going to my first class. I had to sit down and think about who I really was, if I wanted to learn both belly dancing and Israeli style self defense (which looks kinda brutal), at the same time! I decided I could be a dancing warrior. lol 😀 I’ve never done anything physical before – I’ve always been overweight and all my hobbies were sedentary – knitting/crochet, needlework, cardmaking, writing, etc. But, something changed over the summer. And it’s been harder for me to sit still. I’m excited to see what I can turn my body into, at 47! I have a feeling, it’s going to be a much better body than it was when I was in my 20s! 🙂
~ vino
Hi Heidi!
I see forgiveness as something you do for yourself, not for the other person. For example, if somebody is punching you, and you don’t want to get hurt, you step back – which is something you do to protect yourself, not the other person. Forgiveness, is stepping back mentally and emotionally, so whatever the other person is doing doesn’t affect you as much. The way I step back emotionally and mentally, is to let go of my attachments to them, and look at them as I would a stranger. So, all I have to deal with is their words and actions, and not the relationship we have, because i ‘don’t know them’. As for people who don’t want to change – they’re the ones you don’t want to re-establish a relationship with. You just step back a LOT, or simply walk away, and they can throw a hissy fit on their own, and you won’t get hurt.
Anyway – The Man from my Past – for the longest time I called him ‘The Man I Love’ – because I couldn’t get mad at him, and that was a first! lol 🙂 We met on facebook, through friends I played games with, and he and I played a few games together and we chatted while we played and that’s how our relationship grew. He was the first man to tell me I was sexy! That’s one word that I never thought I would be described as! He brought out a side of me that I never knew existed – the female side! The reason it wouldn’t have worked – i wasn’t divorced yet, he already was. He had a son, and he totally lived for the little guy. All his personal plans revolved around his plans with his son. On days that his ex-wife needed child care, he liked being available. I got to see how a real man treats a woman – before the divorce, he made sure she wouldn’t have to worry about housing. He bought the house for her, during the years they were separated! He wasn’t a rich man – he’s an electrician.
We spoke on the phone and we skyped. That’s as far as we got. He’s from the UK, i live in the US. IF either one of us moved, our kids would lose a parent. And although my kids’ dad isn’t as involved, if i moved overseas with the kids, they’d never get a chance to get to know him. Since our kids were already living a less than ideal life, we had to give them what was next best – access to both parents. But, if i hadn’t met him, and experienced the things i did, with him – i never would’ve believed that any man would find me to be sexy! It liberated me in some way. You can’t be mad at someone who has just liberated you! 🙂
I guess it’s time to start labelling the men since there’s more than one of them! lol 🙂 So… the new guy i’m talking to – AJ – he’s a physiotherapist and a coach and who knows what else…. he’s incredibly handsome and i have no idea why he’s on a dating site! I have no clue if he’s interested in me, and frankly i don’t know what i’d do if he is… because… i don’t feel attracted to him in the same way that i felt attracted to JB (the first guy – who is too busy too meet). If he wants to meet, i will meet with him. I think it has helped me a lot to write to more than one man, because i can see (and feel) – the differences in their personalities even without meeting them. I had nothing to compare my communications with JB with, last month. I’ve even written to men whom i’d never date, simply because they took the time to read my profile and responded to something i’d written, so i wrote back, and get a feel for the kind of men they are. I just pretend i’m meeting them at work, and it’s easy to strike up a friendly conversation, which is just a friendly conversation.
I haven’t found anyone who was lying! I did find a man who thought I was lying! He thought i was ‘too intelligent to be working at a store’. lol 🙂 I hope he looks at all the people who are unloading freight and stocking shelves in a different way from now on!!! 😀 Anyway… all this flurry of writing, has provided me with quite a bit of data. and JB is still winning. lol 🙂 Like The Man from my Past – he’s the only one so far, who has stirred my female self. My female self, needs to feel safe, and free, to come out of hiding. I’ve been trying to figure out how i can feel safe on my own without the help of a man… but that’s a whole other thing. lol 🙂
Anyway, I actually just asked JB this morning, if he has any desire to meet me, because if he doesn’t, i’d like to know asap, so i can cut off all my longings to meet him, and just be friends. He said his intent is for us to meet as soon as possible. For now, that’s all i needed to know. He can give himself a headache working out the details. I’m good in the passenger seat. 🙂 I have more flexibility than he does with the job, and in two months, i’ll be available to meet 24/7! lol 🙂
thanks for taking the time to write to me, Heidi!
Happy Holidays!
~ vino
Hi Heidi!
Yes, i’m comfortable just being friends with him. And in the two weeks that we didn’t write to each other, I wrote to many others, including one guy who i’m still writing to, and we’re having some really deep conversations about a topic that he piqued my curiosity in. In fact – it was his idea – that there were probably no lies to set off my lie detector – that caused me to ask for closure.
But… here’s the interesting thing – I am not feeling any kind of a connection to anyone else! I guess he set some kind of a standard by connecting with me in all the levels that i’m aware of. (like mental, emotional, spiritual, physical, political, etc) So, I want him to always be a part of my life (right now) – and depending on how much he wants me to be a part of his, we’ll just have to create a custom-relationship!
Which brings me to – I was at my divorce group earlier today – and the topic of forgiveness came up – and although I didn’t share my discoveries, I realized I have several levels of forgiveness going on in my life based on the kind of relationship I want with someone.
The ones with my kids is the ultimate, ideal one. I forgive them so completely, that it’s almost like they can’t hurt me, because nothing gets in the way of our relationship. There’s only two others that I have experienced such a relationship with – my best friend in nursing school, and a man I feel in love with some 8 or 9 years ago (long distance, it never would’ve worked, etc). My nursing school friend and I fought almost every month, but then, we could only stay mad at each other for 3 days max. It was just so hard to not laugh together. The man I fell in love with, was totally unexpected for several reasons, and it was very painful when he moved on with his life, but I couldn’t be mad at him and we’re still very good friends.
The relationship level below that one, is the one I have with my mother. We enjoy each others’ company now, but I had a lot of pain to heal from before I could get to the place where I actually talk without getting annoyed. However, I still need to remain strong in her presence, because I don’t trust her to be strong for me. It bothered her, that I couldn’t trust her. I told her, sometimes, what is gone cannot grow back, even if there is healing – like an amputation – it heals, but the lost limb is lost.
The lowest level is the one in which I have forgiven a person enough that if they ever needed help and I was the only one around to help them, I would gladly help them, instead of walking away and saying they deserved it.
So, with my friend here… he’s in the number one spot… I just can’t get mad at him! So, if when we meet, he turns out to be the kind of person that I can’t help laughing with… then we could have so much fun together!
It depends on what he wants though because it won’t work if he doesn’t want to have fun with me.
~ vino
Hi Heidi,
no problem… it’s been a busy week and I didn’t really have a lot of time to think about a lot of things.
I did, however, get some good advice from another friend. I told him, it really bothered me that my lie sensors didn’t go off. And he said, maybe there were no lies! Something about his confidence, felt good to me. So, I wrote to him, and told him I needed closure, and only he could give it to me… if he could tell me why he’d stopped writing. And he wrote back almost right away – something had made him feel pressured and he’d gotten all tensed up.
I also went back to the very first messages, and realized that our whole conversation had escalated and gotten out of hand a lot faster than expected, because the initial conversation was so… hmmm… not sure what’s a good word for it. It was almost a debate of sorts, completely intellectual, and absolutely nothing personal. So, in re-reading that initial contact, it occurred to me, that the only reason he’d responded to my first message, could’ve been because i’d said something that he had an opinion about, and it had nothing to do with him finding me attractive or not. I think, it was meant to be a very impersonal conversation, like the sort that you have with strangers online, debating an article. You’re just discussing the article, and you have no intention of getting to know each other personally….
So, when it got personal, it was too much too soon. I know we’re going to meet one day. Even I don’t have the time to meet right now, and he works more hours than I do! lol 🙂 I just needed some kind of reassurance that he’s real, and he is, so now, i’m at peace. I write to him when I have something to say, and he writes if he has something to say, and it’s all good. 🙂
~ vino
Hi Kanya,
been a busy week at work. I’ve been talking to others. But I can’t shake the feeling that I was talking to the real part of him. I reviewed the messages that caused doubts in me, and they still pale in comparison to the connection. I haven’t heard from him since thanksgiving. The date we’d set for meeting is coming up – Saturday – the 14th. The last message I sent to him, I said i’d still be there, since I have some shopping to do in the area anyway.
Of the others that I’ve been talking to… they all want to meet. But I don’t feel any desire to meet them. They haven’t piqued my interest in any way. One man has, slightly, but I also feel, he’s only interested in a casual relationship. On the flip side, I sometimes wonder if a casual relationship is good enough, because it’s so much easier. But then, I think about my heart which has been searching for a home all it’s life. I don’t want my heart to be forgotten again, and I know it will, if I settle for a casual relationship – sort of like eating junk food instead of the real food that the body is craving – stops the hunger for awhile, but doesn’t help in the long run.
But the kind of men i’m attracted to, don’t find me to be their type. One guy was kind enough to write back. He apologized saying I wasn’t his type. The stupid dating site kept saying he was viewing my page and he wasn’t. I figured the same thing was happening with the other guys whose profiles and pictures I liked. And then, I found out about ‘virtual dating assistants’ and realized that even if I get a response back, I may only be talking to a sales person and not the real man. I’m so discouraged right now, and it makes me think about him more…after all, he did write back and we had real conversations about so many different things – religion, politics, life in general, messed up childhoods, adult addictions, the whole nine yards, as they say.
I was going to write to him again last night. But, the Slightly-Interesting gentleman I’ve been writing to, pointed out that I could’ve been writing to a woman! Because he can’t think of a reason why a real man wouldn’t want to meet me. I hadn’t considered that… so I didn’t write to him. How could’ve I have connected to something that wasn’t real?? 🙁
Kanya… good question – what’s next for me?!
I wish I knew. I haven’t heard from him since thanksgiving. He had a double shift, and then he was going to go be with family – and he told me all that before he left, so i’d know I wouldn’t be hearing from him for a few days. In the mean time, I started to fill up with all kinds of fears – that he’s not who he says he is – etc. I was so scared two nights back, thinking of all that I have shared with him, realizing I’ve made myself very vulnerable, and maybe my kids too?! If he isn’t who he says he is, then, am I in danger?!!
And then, I think back to our emails, and there were so many, many, many times, when I could sense the authenticity and sincerity… so… how could he be fake? But it’s not hard to string a few lies up with the truth…!
Should I write to him again? Or just let it go? It’s entirely possible that I could’ve chased him away with my neediness too! I told him, how some of the things he was saying, were making me feel like he cares about me. His concern for myself and my coworkers losing our jobs, his kind responses to my doubts and fears, his letting me know when he wouldn’t be available for an extended period of time…
You know, he never asked for my number. I haven’t talked to him on the phone. I don’t know what he sounds like. But, i’m not a phone person – so I could understand if he’s not a phone person either.
I was just reading the article under ‘irresistible insights’ – “His 5 biggest Relationships Fears” – and that made me think of him again, in a positive way and without my fears. – the very 1st of the 5 fears – is one that I already asked him if he had – from the stories he told me – the fear of letting down a woman he loves! It was the way he talked about two of his girlfriends whom he had a particularly good relationship with. But he let them down. And the way he wrote it… it just jumped out at me, he sounded like he was still mad at himself for letting them down. So, I asked him, directly, if he was afraid of letting down another woman that he might fall for? And he didn’t answer that question, although he has said repeatedly that I could ask him anything. Whenever he avoids a question, I just make note of it in my head, that it’s not a place that he’s comfortable going into, because it’s probably too full of emotions and would make him feel too vulnerable to discuss it. So, I don’t repeat a question.
Anyway… i don’t know if i should write to him again or not, especially since I’ve had these doubts about him even being real. If he’s fake. it’s better i don’t write to him. IF he’s real… i want to make sure he’s ok. Because, i’m ok, and i don’t want him to be hurting and ripping himself up again.
What do i do??!!
~ v
a quick question… I took a break to read my new black Friday purchases… and there was something interesting – about respect/love. It was about a survey – for men:
“They were asked which of two undesirable options they would choose if they had to pick one. Would they rather feel “alone and unloved in the world,” or “inadequate and disrespected by everyone.” Many of the men responding to the survey item were confused because they didn’t see any difference between the two. Think about the implications of that. Now consider that even with this confusion, 74% of men said they would rather feel unloved than disrespected!”
Now – as I thought about how I would answer that question myself – it was kind of a no brainer to me, although they are both terrible – I would rather feel alone and unloved, instead of inadequate and disrespected! I mean, in these two seemingly opposite situations, I don’t understand what ‘love’ could possibley mean, if it also doesn’t included respect!!! I cannot separate the two in my mind! And if it HAS to be separated, respect is better to have, because then, your worth isn’t in question, and you are strong enough to make it on your own, even without anyone else in your life. If you’re only offered ‘love’ (which is meaningless without respect) – you are still inadequate, which makes you dependent on whoever is providing this meaningless ‘love without respect’… and who wants to be weak and dependent?!
This wasn’t what I was going to share earlier, btw. I got distracted by my new book(s). lol 🙂
~ vino
Kanya – thanks for sharing about your own experience with oversharing! I reviewed some of my messages – and – to be honest – i’m completely embarrassed! lol 🙂
It’s like I wanted him to know my whole life story… and not just the person I am now. And I’ve been wondering why I felt the need to do that. At work, I’m perfectly capable of making friends, without feeling the need to tell them everything about myself. I don’t feel like i’m not completely known and accepted, just because they don’t know my past and how hard I worked to get to where i’m at now. Why then, did I feel like I wanted him to know how hard I worked? Did I need a pat on my head or something?
I did have a conversation with him regarding expectations that are placed on us while growing up – by our families, friends, the community as a whole, and even ourselves. We get lost in those expectations. Our parents expect us to be perfect and never embarrass them. So, when we work hard to meet that expectation, they never appreciate it, because we’ve only done what was expected of us. We get a job and we work hard, but that too, is expected of a ‘good citizen’ – and no one appreciates it. We get married, as everyone expected us to, and we remain faithful to each other, and work through our issues and look like a perfect couple, but that is nothing to be admired for! And then you have kids who do well in school, who don’t shoot each other up, and are respectful to everyone, but hey, that was expected of you too, to be able to raise good citizens. Fall short of any of those expectations, and you’ll hear about it all the time. You’re a failure. A disappointment. Worthless. Useless. Can’t even do what is expected of you! Any respectable human can do all that with ease!
The expectations don’t change when you’ve had to deal with a bit of extra trauma in childhood. No one realizes that an average expectation, is heavier for one who hasn’t had the kind of support they needed while growing up, and you don’t know that either. So you label yourself a failure. Because you see others succeeding with greater ease than you do. And that just creates a constant downward spiral.
I feel the need to be known inside out. It wasn’t easy for me to even learn to love my children. But I succeeded. Not only do they know I love them, they still trust me and talk to me because they know I won’t slap them with stupid expectations and judgments. I have never made the excuse that ‘that’s how I was raised’ – NEVER! If something wrong was done to me, It Will Stop with me. I will not let it affect someone else! How could you pass on to your children, the wrongs that were done to you?! I hate it when people use their childhood experiences as an excuse for being mean to their own kids or their spouse. You just Have to break the chains, and Stop the abuse and neglect with you!
At any rate. I had an amazing day yesterday at work, and I realized that nobody at work, knows this part of me. And yet, my relationships with them are fulfilling. I went in for an extra shift yesterday, to help out. I found a bunch of the college kids being bored because of the lack of customers. I found work for them to do. They obeyed without question. They even stayed off their phones while they worked! lol 🙂 I love those kids. They’re always surprised to find out I’m old enough to be their mother. One of them found out two days ago, and he thought I was lying. He had always assumed I was just a little bit older than him. His male brain didn’t do the calculations when he met my kids. A 30 year old woman, cannot have a 20 year old kid. lol 😀 However, yesterday, I noticed a slight change in the way he interacted with me. There was a deeper measure of respect, and he allowed me to boss him around and put him to work. One of the girls told me that our manager thought she was walking around with nothing to do, and was about to give her something to do. She told him she was helping me, and she said, his entire demeanor changed, and he just said, ‘oh, ok.’ It surprised her. It didn’t surprise me. I have the greatest respect from all of the higher ups. They know I can obey without question, they also know I can take charge. And i have full freedom to work the way i want to. (Ah, i’m going to miss my happy place!)
Anyway – I’m going to have to return to my relationship with my co-workers, as a standard for creating a healthy relationship, that maintains privacy. it is entirely possible to be friends and not know anything about each other! WE just have to meet each other at the place where we’re at now. it’s my ego and my pride that wanted him to know how awesome i am, because of how hard I’ve worked to get here! that is entirely embarrassing. Especially since, i didn’t lack in friends who have been with me for the past 15 years or so, watching me grow and helping me as they could. Several of them have commented on how different i am now, than when we first met, I’m stronger and i’m so much more happier. That should’ve been enough for me.
i have more to share… but i have to get to work!
thanks again, for listening!
~ vino
