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Hi Armand,
Welcome! You have quite the story. I can see why you have some confusion and not sure how to move forward with this. Well done for reaching out and asking for some guidance! You took a big risk sharing your story here and that just tells me that your desire to learn and grow is greater than any fear you have. This is a GREAT quality…not letting your fear run your life.
There is one thing I want to bring up first, that can be a GREAT help for you in any relationship. It’s an extremely tough concept and not something a lot of people abide by, because it’s hard. Your feelings are NOT the facts. What I mean by that is anytime you are triggered into hurt and pain, your mind creates stories about what happened. For example “He should have been there for me when I had to deal with that tragedy” or “I can’t trust him. I cannot open my heart to a guy that I don’t feel like I can rely on” or “He made me feel ignored and insignificant.” These short stories are NOT the facts…they are just your perception of what happened. If I had gone through the same exact situation with him, I would create a different story about it. The stories we end up creating are linked to feelings and pre-existing stories from our past. So you got REALLY hurt…to the point of crying…. because you felt he was being dismissive and rude. This is a pretty big reaction to have, which just tells me he hit a sensitive spot of yours. In your life growing up, did you feel dismissed? Did you feel like you didn’t matter? Did you feel like anonymous at all?
Whenever we are triggered, it’s a sign of something we buried from our past and the current situation is activating it. So whatever it is that you end up feeling, whatever stories your mind immediately creates, it’s NOT the facts…it’s only your perspective. One analogy I like to use is imagine you are sitting at a table with 4 different people. There is a beautiful bouquet of flowers in the middle of the table inside of an artful vase. If I were to ask each of you to give me a description of the flowers in front of you, I would get 4 different answers, right? Each person is seeing a different side of the vase. Is anybody wrong? Nope. Is everyone right? Yep. Our perspectives are the lens that we see life through and has been designed by our experiences in the past. Relationships are our GREATEST teachers, as they show us where we have unresolved hurts from our past. For example, you still were feeling hurt by his lack of support for you through the tragedy, even though he apologized. You are not able to let it go. You are not able to forgive him and his humanness. Is this because of him? No. It’s because how he treated you triggered some strong feelings that live in your subconscious from your past. If you did not have anything buried, you would be able to easily let it go and move on.
My point in telling you all of this is to teach you that relationships are our teachers NOT meant to be our caretakers. You have a mindset where you are making HIM responsible for how you are feeling. While he is human and going to make mistakes that cause you to hurt, your hurt exists TO THE LEVEL IT DOES because you have baggage that is being activated. For example, if you felt he was dismissive and rude during your birthday, a simple “Hey…I’m not sure what’s going on right now, but I am feeling like I’m being pushed aside right now. What’s going on? This isn’t like you.” This is the adult way to handle it. But because you cried – which is a strong reaction – it’s letting you know that what he did in that moment, was activating an entire network of pain that has lived in you for YEARS saying “I don’t matter.” The idea is, when we end up having strong reactions, it’s an opportunity to learn what lives in those networks. It’s a moment where we get to learn about ourselves. What most people do, and like what you did, you relied on HIM to fix this for you, when in reality – it’s NOT his fault that you felt the level of pain that you did. It’s the cause of many moments and many people before he even met you….yet you are putting ALL those feelings onto him to fix. Most people take this approach because they don’t know any better AND it definitely is the easy way out. I will tell you that this approach will slowly wear away at the relationship and eventually become quite toxic. It’s an approach where people blame each other and that never lasts.
Does this make sense? This is a pretty big concept and it’s hard to share it through this platform. I usually teach this in a webinar where I can show diagrams and walk people through the concept step by step. Let me know your thoughts on this.
I don’t know if closing the chapter and keeping my distance was the right call or if listening to those social media dating coaches led me astray. Should I reach out, or let it go entirely? Part of me wonders if I could have done things differently, and I feel foolish if I’m the only one feeling this way. If this means putting my pride aside, I’m willing. Okay, let’s break this down a bit. First of all, there is no such thing as “the right call” or the “wrong call.” Every moment, every situation that happens, every decision that is made, whether it produces positive or negative results…is ALWAYS the perfect choice. Why? Because every moment, whether positive or negative, has lessons for us. Every moment is an opportunity to learn about ourselves, the other person, and most of all – learning about what works and doesn’t work for us. I know what I know today because of all the “wrong” decisions I made. Many times, we learn about what we need and want, by making decisions that hurt. For example, your guy wanted to break up and he made that decision. That decision is helping him know what he really wants or doesn’t want through the absence of you in his life. Isn’t that good information for him to know? So I want to invite you into a different kind of mindset that is more fluid. You are coming across as having a strong black and white, right and wrong type of approach to life. Is this accurate? With love, it’s MANY different shades and is meant to be circular, linear, multi-layered and absolutely will activate every fear, every insecurity, every lie you believe about yourself, every pain you have ever stored…relationships will definitely activate the very worst in you and it will activate the very best in you. If you work with having the mindset that ALL OF IT is a gift…ALL OF IT is helpful in learning about yourself, the there is no right and wrong. I know for me, it was all the failures and mishaps and upsets that caused me to go deep inside and explore what got activated. Now…I have an incredible skillset and ability to handle stress. I am incredibly good at relationships and love. I am so thankful for all those times I was rejected, all those moments where the guy completely obliterated my heart, all those experiences where something was said or done that activated a world of pain in me. I would never have known all the crap was in there, unless someone else pushed the button. So again…relationships are fluid. It’s a complete waste of energy and time to go down the road of “What if I had done this differently” etc. You will NEVER have that answer – what I will tell you is that even IF you had chosen differently or acted differently, you still would have hit a road block…you still would have been hurt…you still would have to deal with him facing his fears…these roadblocks we end up facing in relationships are there no matter what we do. These roadblocks ALWAYS get activated sooner or later and no matter the path we take. So let it go. Rest easy. You have your roadblocks, he has his…and relationships are about facing those in each other…sometimes we can get through them together and sometimes not. It really depends on how willing both people are to learning, growing, and facing their fears and hurts in a skilled, conscious way.
I asked my friends and family for advice—my male friend said he seems unsure about the breakup and needs to figure out what he wants, my mother thinks I was being stubborn, and my cousin wonders if he found someone else. Let’s talk about this. This actually made me smile because this is the perfect example of everyone having a piece of the truth while looking at the same situation…just like the analogy I used with the flowers in the middle of the table. Your male friend is absolutely correct. Your guy doesn’t know what he wants. And sometimes, the best way to figure out what you want is to just make a decision and let everything else go. Once a decision is made…all kinds of information comes up that is very important to have. So your guy is absolutely struggling. You are valuable to him, there is no doubt about that. BUT…he also is facing a lot in his life and he is also dealing with a lack of trust and safety. He is afraid of love. He is afraid of being close. You being in his life pushed into his fear….which is a good thing! He needs to face it. Your mom is correct in that you are being stubborn. I wouldn’t use that word, but instead I would say that you are afraid as well – and that is coming across as stubborn. You are afraid of being hurt – just like him. For you, it shows up as a BIG WALL – black and white – “Once I’m gone, I’m gone” kind of thinking. This is more fear causing you to operate this way. And your cousin might be correct. Being that his ex has shown up a few times, it’s possible he is considering her again. Who knows! If this is true, it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with him NOT facing his fears and pressing the “hard” button.
In the end, it’s up to you what you want to do. There is no right or wrong. This is about you making decisions, fumbling around, making a mess, fixing things etc….all things we do in relationships – and figuring out that no matter what you decide – YOU WILL BE OKAY!!! No matter the outcome…YOU WILL BE OKAY!!! This is what resilience is. Someone who lives in fear about trying to always make the “right” decisions, is someone who doesn’t trust themselves and someone who is letting fear get in the way of living life. Someone who trusts themselves and is resilient says “I got this. No matter what happens, no matter the hurt I end up feeling, I KNOW I am resourceful. I KNOW I can figure out how to get to the other side. I KNOW I will figure out how to heal and move forward. I got this.”
You are stronger than you think. Give yourself more credit. You have a lot of learning to do about love and relationships, so just go learn and let go of the outcome. I know it’s scary and hard…but if you ever want to any good in relationship and support a healthy, high functioning love…you gotta do what’s scary and hard and find out that you can handle it.
Heidi
Hi Karen! Thank you for sharing so much more! It’s helpful. AND…it’s good for you to write all of this out. It’s kind of like journaling and that there is always a benefit to that. Let’s go over some of what you shared.
I know he has a lot of baggage as do I and I guess maybe I’m hoping that we can unpack those bags and get rid of the garbage. This is a nice idea, but never works. The reason this doesn’t work is because neither of you has the deep understanding nor skillset to clear the baggage. Unpacking it and understanding what lives in the baggage is about as far as most people get, but just because you know, DOES NOT mean it shifts or heals or releases any of the contents in the baggage. I wish it did! With the amount of information and understanding I have about the human psyche, I would have been healed LOOOONG ago…but alas I still have a ton of work to do. For example, he KNOWS he over gives yet that hasn’t changed anything has it? He is still choosing to over give and source a toxic pattern in the relationships he chooses. Healing is MUCH MORE than just understanding what is happening. It’s about going much deeper, with someone skilled to guide you, and helping you unpack those moments that created baggage in the first place and releasing the negative emotions and stories from that place. So while you would like to unpack the garbage together, it would be like the blind leading the blind. Does this make sense>
From what I have seen with him , he doesn’t have to get drunk all the time and according to his sister, he goes on benders every so often. Those are usually brought on my his relationship situations. RED FLAG RED FLAG!!! This is dangerous Karen. I know it’s every once in a while, but it is a strategy he has to manage stress and that is so dangerous. What most people do not know is that as we age, our emotional system and “scaffolding” so to speak, they we use on a daily basis to keep our “baggage” in check, it starts to break down and weaken and whatever is unresolved, starts to become more intense and add stress to our lives. So if he uses alcohol sometimes as a coping mechanism, it’s guaranteed to only get worse as he ages, unless he finally decides to truly face what he is carrying inside. Alcohol should NEVER be used as a way to manage stress.
I don’t know exactly how to be happy on my own. I know how to survive but I really want that intimate connection. I know I don’t NEED a man to get through but I really want that companionship to share life experiences with. I know you want that intimate connection. It’s beautiful! However, when you don’t have that with yourself, the only connection you will be able to support is a co-dependent connection. Meaning, you will rely so heavily on the other person being able to offer you what you want and need, that you will lose yourself AND that is a TON of pressure on the guy being responsible for your happiness. It is a type of connection that eventually, will drain the life out of the person you have put into that role. AND you will never learn how to source yourself. Your self-esteem will be 100% reliant on your outside world telling you instead of learning how to stay empowered. Listen Karen…life is FULL of rejection and will be forever. It is soooooo awful to have to go through life NEEDING everything to be okay so you can feel okay. Even in the most amazing relationships that are deep and intimate and authentic, rejection happens. So then what are you left with? Feeling empty, depressed and miserable. Instead, what I want to invite you into is relying on yourself for your happiness so that WHEN the world rejects you in some sort of way, you still know your value, you still feel strong, you still feel capable, you still feel lovable, and you feel 100% resilient. THAT is healthy. THAT is not NEEDING others to behave the way you want so you can feel good about yourself. This is a tough one though. Most people will avoid the kind of work it takes to build this type of resilience. It’s not easy, but I will tell you, life is soooooooo much easier this way. Going through COVID, I watched everyone around me fall apart. They either became depressed, anxious, stopped laughing, cutting people off in their lives and most people were just miserable. YUK! It doesn’t have to be that way!
He has said his wall is high and yes he is very protective of his heart at this point and as he should be. There is a difference between being “protective” and “discerning.” Protective means fear is the source. He is afraid and anytime fear is the source, it’s a recipe for failure. Fear is so powerful AND it ruins relationships EVERY TIME. We all have fear of course, but the difference is, do you let fear make the decision for you or do you put fear in the back seat and YOU take control. Discernment is sourced by wisdom. He has no discernment. He keeps choosing the same type of experience over and over again, so he hasn’t really learned anything – and then he kicks himself over and over again for not learning his lesson. Well…he will never learn his lesson until he faces his fear…THEN discernment has the ability to take over. Being discerning means having VERY CLEAR boundaries and standards as to what you require in a relationship. This is not him. And it’s not you either. You chose very toxic relationships as well and you stayed in them for a long time. It’s because your standards are so low and you do not have the self esteem to REQUIRE someone to treat you with respect and kindness…AT ALL TIMES. And if someone doesn’t align with these standards, they don’t get to be in your life.
When my friend told me that he is a giver and lover , that when he is with someone, they are his only focus, no other will even be entertained. I told him that to me that is what most women could ever want in a man. I know it’s something I would want for sure. This is called go-dependence. It’s actually not giving. It’s a very dysfunctional way to live, just like narcissism…it’s just on the opposite side. Narcissism is getting your needs met at the expense of others. CO-dependence is meeting the needs of others at the expense of yourself. So basically…it’s 2 sides of the same coin. It’s very damaging. He is over giving because he is trying to make himself feel good about who he is…just in a very dysfunctional way. It’s a coping mechanism. We all have them! Our coping mechanisms are with us FOREVER, however as we heal and grow, we can get a grip on them. For me, I tend towards narcissism sometimes and co-dependence sometimes. SO when I am stressed, I use my techniques, I work with my coach, I talk to my friends etc. so I can keep myself in check and NOT make decisions and handle challenges from the place of my coping mechanisms. Does this make sense?
My sister in law tells me I need to get more friends, but I don’t know if I really want more friends..Honestly, I don’t even want to entertain dating anyone other than this guy.. If it doesn’t work that way, I’m content to be single..
It’s something that had been building for quite some time and her having her ex there when he showed up confirmed it. He felt stupid and such a fool for trying. That is why he wanted to get drunk She is right! This is more about you getting exposed to MANY different kinds of people. Forget dating. Just go meet new people and learn about who you are in front of different personalities and cultures. That’s how I used to date. I used to go out with everyone and anyone…fat, short, ugly, gorgeous, athletic, brainiac, nerd AND as many different cultures as I could find. That is how I learned about myself…my judgments, how I communicated, my low self-esteem, my high self-esteem, what I was really good at, what I was not so good at. It’s how I know what I know today. Being around people allows you to develop relationship skills of all kinds! Take the pressure off of by NOT doing it for the romance. Find out that you are lovable and likable REGARDLESS of your size. The fact that this current guy is the first one who you feel accepted by, just tells me you need to get out more. There are PLENTY of people who would love and accept you just as you are, you are just not giving yourself the opportunity to experience it…so then…this current guy has so much more meaning and power in your life because he is “THE FIRST and ONLY ONE” when really, if you had a lot of experiences of being accepted for who you are, this current guy would not be on the pedestal you created.My younger brother was like a best friend to me and we could talk about anything. He used to call me every night while he waited for his wife to get home from work. Oh Karen! I am sooooo so sorry that you lost him. That is so devastating. I love that you got to have this kind of experience! I have 2 brothers and never have I felt like that about them. At least you have some wonderful experiences with a male energy to help guide you in what is possible for you.
I booked a fall trip by myself. I did invite him to go along if he wanted because it was a large house with plenty of room so no pressure. He didn’t come. He had to go to Florida to pick up a truck and bring back here. Last I got a message from his was last Sunday after I sent him a wish for a good flight and safe travels. He said thanks and to enjoy my time away. I resisted texting him until tonight hoping he would reach out first. Just a quick Hi hope all is well. Have not heard anything back yet.. Well done! Keep doing things like this! Join travel groups and get to know other people on those trips. I’ve done that before and it’s fantastic!
I want to encourage you to let him go. He is not available for you Karen. He is very clearly keeping you at a distance. He is NOT set up emotionally to be happy and in love. All he knows about love is that it’s not safe and that is a very evident by the choices he is making. He has some very thick walls that will always keep you at a distance and he is right to do so. With the baggage he is carrying around, he will never allow himself to feel happy and that means…you are going to stay in the friend category and he will be connective sometimes and sometimes not.
I know you really want this to work….maybe at some point he will change his mind. But until then, focus 100% on yourself and cleaning up your baggage. Learn new skills, develop your self-esteem, meet other people and start to empower yourself. There is so much life waiting for you to experience. I’d hate to see you stay inside and stay small.
You are stronger than you think.
Heidi
Hi Karen,
Thank you for sharing so much about our situation! It’s always helpful for us to have as much detail as possible.
Wow! You really have been through it with the relationships you chose. You started out not having a lot of self-worth and then you picked 2 men who reinforced that for you. What kind of work have you done on yourself to recover from all of that? What have you learned about yourself since being single? Do you feel emotionally stronger? Do you feel like you have more self-esteem?
I get why you really like this guy. He NEEDS you, he is connective when he is with you, and you enjoy being around him. I just want to shed some light on the situation for you. He is ALSO another emotionally unavailable man. Here are 3 main reasons that show me this:
1. He chooses women who are lower functioning emotionally which means he is lower functioning as well. He may get cheated on, but he is a vibrational match for someone who doesn’t value him and someone who is out of their integrity. He has A LOT of low self-esteem and that makes him emotionally unavailable. That makes him very high maintenance and reliant on the outside world to value him, instead of him learning how to value himself.
2. He told you flat out that his wall is mile high around women. He KNOWS he is very protective of his heart. This is a guy who has not worked through all his hurt and instead has used that hurt to build his VERY STRONG wall. This makes him NOT emotionally available.
3. He is in and out of your life and not being consistent or caring about how that impacts you. He is connective and then he isn’t. This is a guy who wants to connect with you, but his fear and his walls are MUCH STRONGER and will always sabotage connection with you. Someone who is available doesn’t behave this way. Someone who is available values and nourishes connection.I also do want to point out that it’s a SUPER RED FLAG that he says “I want to get drunk” after catching his girlfriend. If you had not been there to connect with him, that is absolutely what he would have done. No, it doesn’t make him an alcoholic per se, but it does make him someone who wants to use alcohol to deal with stress and that is always a slippery slope. Anyone who uses alcohol as a coping mechanism is in danger. What happens if you were together and you and him got into a fight? He would probably go drink and you would be left alone without a partner to help you work through the situation. He is someone who RUNS from his stressors AND he is someone who continually chooses women who put him back into those stressors over and over again. He is a HOT MESS Karen. My guess is, he isn’t initiating with you beyond “friendship” because he actually respects you and actually likes you and he has so much low self-esteem, that he would feel like he would break your heart…he would feel like he isn’t good enough for you. While that isn’t true, it is a symptom of a lot of low self-esteem and the more there is of that, the more drama and challenge that person brings to love.
You obviously get to do what you want with this guy. I know that I have absolutely chosen relationships that were knowingly challenging and difficult and a guaranteed failure, but I made sure that as I chose that experience, I learned what I needed to learn about myself. Sometimes we just need to step into the shit to finally stop choosing to step into it.
I want to invite you into exploring yourself more. I know you had a really tough start to life and your experience with love was extremely empty, limited, and hard. So why not explore why you chose those situations in the first place? Why not explore why you stayed in it for so long? Why not explore what is stopping you from really connecting to your power and your joy and happiness? You rejected happiness for decades, so I imagine you are so used to it, that you don’t know any different.
Love is uplifting. Love is kind. Love is connective. Love is supportive and accepting. Imagine being with a guy who talks with you about the challenges instead of running away. Imagine being with a guy who feels joy with you and excited to be around you. Imagine being with a guy who is truly curious about you and asks you questions. Imagine being with a guy where you could go anywhere together and have fun…laugh, kiss, hold hands, and have great conversations. This is absolutely possible, but this type of relationship means building in standards for yourself. It means being discerning. It means not settling and it means most of all, working on your self-esteem so you can support this type of connection.
Thoughts?
Heidi
Hi Lynda! Great to hear from you! Thank you for the update.
First, I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you both had a wonderful weekend together and that he is feeling more connective. It sounds like the secret ingredient, at least for now, is you having a job. You have a way to earn money, you have activities separate from him, you have some independence…which I’m guessing, is helping him feel less pressure. This is great! How are YOU feeling about having a job? I know this is only a seasonal job. Do you plan on looking for a job after this one ends? How about looking for a full time job?
Of course, I shut down and sat during the performance quiet and angry. After it, he asked me if I was mad and I was honest and said a little yes. He seemed to get irritated at this. Why??? I was truthful and I had a right to be. I never got an apology. The only thing said was in the car on the way to the game when he said “I don’t mean to be irritated”. I understand he was probably worried I wouldn’t make it back in time. But he never got a hold of me to tell me he thought I shouldn’t go to the store. Again, I feel like he wasn’t communicating like he should. Lynda, he isn’t going to communicate the way you want him to all the time…it’s just the reality of relationships. He is not a great communicator, but this is pretty common for most men. And the common pattern for most women is to shut down and become passive aggressive by NOT communicating either and shutting down and becoming unavailable, waiting for the man to pull it out of her. I want to encourage you to communicate differently as well. Shutting down and becoming angry instead of simply talking to him about what you need differently, is a harmful pattern as well. The anger just festers inside of you and that can absolutely spiral into something MUCH BIGGER the longer you hold it in. You cannot do anything about HE communicates, but you can definitely work on your lack of communication as well.
I am also upset because now that I have a job, I was going to get those vocal lessons I always wanted. About a week or so ago, he brought that up. He started the conversation with now that I had a job – “I don’t expect you to give me money for the bills, but you could help out with other things needed”. He then proceeded to mention the fact that he never forgot that I wanted those lessons, but he was concerned because he feels like they would be a long term thing and that would cost a lot. Let’s talk about your job and the money you are making from it. What it sounds like is that you both are not on the same page here and a conversation needs to happen about that.
He is supporting you financially and now his kids are home and also relying on him. The business has been struggling, so for a man being the MAIN provider for everyone…it’s VERY scary and lot of pressure when money isn’t flowing in. I can understand his concern that once you start these lessons, it gets expensive long term and you only have a seasonal part time job…so what happens when the job is over? You plan on stopping your lessons? His concerns are valid and it’s good that he expressed them. The lessons are one more expense he was thinking would be added to his list of bills. Can you understand his concern? Instead of getting upset, talk to him about it. Work TOGETHER on the ways you get your needs met. He is covering the majority of your expenses, so talk about how you can help out with that more, your plans about what happens when the seasonal job ends, and about you using your money for singing lessons and what his true thoughts are about this. Neither of how you feel is right or wrong…it’s just different. His feelings need to matter to you and your feelings need to matter to him – and then you BOTH compromise and figure out how to come to an agreement about how the money you earn is spent. If he were making tons of money and was easily able to cover ALL expense for everyone, he wouldn’t even question you using the money you make for singling lessons. So it’s important to truly see that he is stressed, feels a lot of pressure to take care of everyone, and you are wanting to use money that you make for a hobby instead of helping to pay for your own cost of living. Do you see how he might struggle with that?
If his daughter is using your stuff, then take it out of the shower and put it in a basket that you can bring in and out of your room, so she no longer has access to it. I know it’s a pain, but that’s the reality of your home right now. If his kids want to do nothing…they get to do that. It’s between him and his kids, not you. So let HIM be the kind of caretaker he wants to be and then you are going to have to protect your own things so they don’t use it….or let her use your stuff and let it go.
He wants me to have my independence, but won’t let me have money to do that. Yes, he wants you to have your independence, but he pretty much pays for your life. It’s not that he won’t let you, he just has feelings about supporting your life while you take the little money you earn and put it towards a hobby after your car payment. That’s hard for him and rightly so. He wants more financial help. Can you blame him? And for you to say “he won’t let me” seems like you are putting him in the parent role and you are the child. You are a grown woman and you can do as you please Lynda. He is not stopping you. If he doesn’t like a choice you make, it doesn’t mean you can’t do it. It just means he doesn’t like it and you will have to deal with that by either honoring his feelings and figuring out how to compromise, or you decide to do it anyways and know he won’t like it. How many times has he done something he knows you don’t like? A LOT! It’s just part of relationship. So if you want to spend money on singing lessons, then you get to do that. He is not going to stop you. He just will struggle with it.
When I think about it, this is how I feel – he stays at the house and does some work things all day, but also talks to his friend all day and does hockey stuff. I go to work 5 days a week, come home and help with the business, and still can’t have what little money I will have left after my car payment. I still help him with orders and I’m still helping try to grow the business so why can’t he get me the few things I may need? I don’t know how to have independence and do things for me without having money. I think I’m done venting for now. It sounds like resentment is growing for you and that is something that truly needs to be addressed or it’s going to break you guys apart sooner or later. It seems you are still resentful of his attention to hockey and his friend and that you don’t feel THAT important to him and it hurts. Lynda, this is his life and how he likes to move through it. Hockey and his best friend are soooo important for him and his sanity. I know you want to be THAT important to him, but it’s just not going to happen. You are going to be 2nd to hockey and to his best friend. Can you be okay being 2nd? Can you be okay that he is giving you everything he has. If this is not enough for you, then it’s time for you to re-evaluate your choices. If you cannot accept that his is how he WANTS to live his life, then it’s time to go.
It sounds like you feel resentful that you are working your own job and then trying to grow the business, so you feel you should have SOMETHING to show for it…singing lessons – and you are resentful that he doesn’t support that for you. How can you create this dynamic differently? If you don’t do something, you are just going to continue to be angry about everything he does and feels and he will be reactive to that. It’s time to sit down and have a serious conversation about your “independence.” I guarantee he has a completely different view about what independence is than you do.
So why not set up a date night, go to a restaurant and talk about the finances. DO NOT get upset about how he feels. Truly listen. Be curious about his perspective and be workable to find a solution that you both feel good about. You both are having these moments of discord, but neither of you are talking about it. He gets irritated, you get angry….and neither of you are really sitting down and talking about it and working it all the way through to completion.
In regards to you, you are still operating under this mindset that HE needs to act and be a certain way so you can feel happy. You are still looking to him to communicate better, choose you more, support you with everything he has…so you can finally feel happy in this relationship. Like I have said many times, this approach and mindset will just keep you in hurt and resentment. Instead, empower yourself. If you want more independence, then get a full time job and make more money…pay for ALL your bills and budget for singing lessons. If you want better communication, then begin with yourself and stop shutting down and pointing the finger at him for not talking to you, when you are doing the same exact thing to him. If you don’t want your stuff to be used by his daughter, then take it out of the shower so she doesn’t use it. This is EMPOWERMENT. This is a mindset of you taking care of yourself instead of looking to everyone else to be what you need so you can be happy.
Thoughts on this?
Heidi
Hi Lynda
I haven’t heard from you in a while, so I thought I’d check in. Not sure if you are still a member here. How are things going? I know they were on the upswing. Is it still continuing to get better little bits at a time?
Heidi
Hi Mahsa. Welcome!
I’m a little confused about this situation, so I have some questions.
It sounds like you both are very likeminded, which is always a really good way to start things out.
What happened between kissing and stopping the first night (because you know what needs to be in place for you to move to the next level), to having sex the 2nd date? There is no judgment here, it’s just me inquiring into what happened for you that you negotiated away your standards? You had them the first date, but not the 2nd date, so what was the difference within you? You both were obviously impulsive, but I always love to look beneath that impulsive energy and explore what was sourcing it. I know sexual chemistry is incredibly powerful, but usually there is something deeper and on a subconscious level that happens when people give into that chemistry (or anything for that matter) even though it goes against what they REALLY want consciously. Any thoughts on this?
It sounds like having sex and then being anxious and going to the clinic, shifted a very fragile (just because it was brand new) connection.
Just found myself feeling very anxious about everything moving so fast and him taking a 2 week trip to Italy the next day Tell me more about this. What specific fears were up for you? Yes, you moved fast, but it really is a simple fix to slow things back down again. Did you not feel he would be open to that? What fear did you have about him going to Italy?
I feel like I wasn’t able to even really be myself through all our dates I’m curious why you didn’t feel like you could be yourself. What parts of you were you holding back? What was missing from who you REALLY are? And what do you understand about the “why” behind you hiding your most authentic self?
start off on the right foot to see if my feelings are accurate I am not sure I understand this. What IS the right foot in your mind? What feelings are you not sure of?
In the end, I think the most important thing to focus on, is figuring out what about this situation or what about him, causes you to disconnect from yourself. Whenever I feel I am not being 100% authentic and 100% in my own skin, I always explore the reasons for that. Usually, there is fear….fear of not being accepted, putting the other person on a pedestal – making me “less than” somehow, afraid of being rejected….it’s usually something within this genre. It’s always an opportunity because it exposes where I am not choosing myself first or where I am not loving myself first and where I am hiding parts of myself in order to gain attention somehow. That’s a hole within ME that gets exposed when I feel like this and I am wanting the guy to fill it for me.
How do I step into the friendship as my best self without being too eager This is the mindset I would invite you to explore. If you are eager, it’s just a symptom of you giving away your power to him. If you were grounded and centered and 100% in alignment with how amazing you truly are, you would not be eager to have him accept you, like you, choose you, or even want to be your friend. It’s “child” energy that is “eager” to connect, to be liked, to be chosen. When you are in your confidence and connected to the divine truth that you are worth loving and knowing, JUST AS YOU ARE – then your need to have anyone else validate that for you doesn’t exist. Does this make sense?
So again, I circle back around to this…for whatever reason, this guy is activating some of your insecurities. Man…I’ve had many men do that to me and it’s tough AND I slow myself down and explore where I am giving away my value and letting THEM decide if I’m valuable enough, pretty enough, interesting enough etc. Then I work on coming home to myself and letting go of the “outcome” of what I THINK I want with them. Ultimately, you will know you are 100% free when you do not seek anything from him, because you are so fully and completely filled up and connected to the divine truth, not HIS truth.
So your need for things to “start on the right foot” is an illusion. There is no such thing as “right.” Your relationship will grow into whatever it grows into…it might completely fall flat or it might develop….who knows. Your goal is to NOT NEED it to be anything other than what it is. THAT is staying empowered. THAT is staying connected to a higher level truth. THAT is allowing TRUE manifestation to happen – remember it’s taught to let go of the outcome. So manifest an amazing, incredible, deep, inspiring love and then LET GO of who that is going to be for you.
Does all of this make sense?
Thoughts?
Heidi
Hi Jessica! Thank you for continuing to share your thoughts! It helps me every time know how to better offer my guidance.
My biggest question would be, what does a “healed” or “adult energy” version of myself look like to you? What healed looks like for anyone, is alignment with the highest levels of truth. When we have hurt that we are carrying from our past, that hurt exists ONLY because we placed a negative story around that hurt. That hurt lives in a sea of lies that we are keeping alive every time we run that story about whatever happened. What healing looks like, is being able to look back at whatever happened and have zero negative feelings about it. All that is left is gratitude for the experience and all it taught us. Let’s use your past as an example. You were bullied combined with having parents that also created a harmful environment for you. You literally had nowhere safe to go, so you spent your childhood in an elevated, survival type of energy. You created a lot of stories around those events….I don’t know exactly what those stories are, but I do know that those stories would include thoughts something like “I’m not safe” “Yelling is bad” “I need to be perfect so I don’t upset anyone” – and those thoughts are fueled by lies and here is how this happens:
When trauma happens or a strong enough event occurs that it imprints on our system, it gets stored in “state specific” form. This means that the details of the event, the smells, the sounds, the tone of the people, and your thoughts (at the age it happened) gets stored in your system. The biggest challenge about this, is when something happens as a 10 year old, the thoughts about that event get stored with a 10 year old mentality. 10 year olds obviously DO NOT have the ability to truly understand what is happening. Our brains do not fully develop abstract thinking until our early 20s, and that’s why a lot of children that were abused or had traumatic events, may have gone to therapy as a child, but they will need to go back later, as a full grown adult, to be able to process the deeper, more abstract layers of those events, now that their brain is fully developed. So when stories are stored as a 3 year old, a 10 year old, a 12 year old etc., those stories are full of lies….for example, a 10 year old would BELIEVE “my mom left because I wasn’t a good boy like she wanted me to be.” That is the level of a 10 year old brain. But just because someone grows up and their brain develops, it doesn’t mean those thoughts that imprinted at that age, grow up. Those thoughts, stories, lies STAY as a 10 year old.
THIS is where triggers come from. Someone says or does something and it has a familiar enough flavor for it to activate that 10 year old thinking “they will leave me if I’m not perfect.” These thoughts are what I call “targets” which are the lies that FEEL true. Someone leaving has nothing to do with that 10 year old being perfect or not, right? But the 10 year old doesn’t FEEL that. These “targets” are messages from the subconscious, letting us know what REALLY lives deep inside of us. OVER 80% of what we think and feel comes from the subconscious. So you, for example, have the story that the quiet guys are more safe and that is influencing who you are initially attracted to. If you healed all the stories and negative imprint of your past, that story would not exist. What would exist instead is the story that any guy can be a good match and you could feel safe with a popular, loud, or magnetic guy or a shy quiet one. It wouldn’t matter. What would matter instead are the qualities of the person. The emotionally unavailable guy is your pattern, so that is your wounding – the energy of your young self who is still carrying a lot of hurt and pain from your past and who is choosing the guys who are unavailable because you have identified them as “safe” because they are NOT how your parents behaved. Do you see how your past experiences shaped this belief that the quiet guys are more safe?
So healed means, alignment with the truth. The truth being “I am lovable.” “I am safe.” “I am resilient and can handle anything that shows up.” Someone who is more healed, has a lower pain tolerance. When things get difficult (in an unhealthy, toxic way), they don’t participate or engage. The women who are constantly going after the unavailable men, have a higher pain tolerance, because they are carrying around the BIG wound “I’m not lovable” so they keep trying to master that by picking a guy who is unavailable and hoping to win him over, which will FINALLY make them feel “I am lovable” (which of course never sustains – once they finally get that guy and finally get that attention, the relationship will end at some point because it’s unhealthy to begin with and they will just go find another guy to try and win over).
I’ve always been like this. I don’t feel a predisposition to “fix” this guy and know that I’m going to have to accept him for who he is and where he’s at, even if he struggles, that he needs to challenge himself on his own, and that’s my decision on whether I can accept where he is right now or if he’s too much of a project for me. Just because “you’ve always been like this” and you don’t “feel” like you want to fix, doesn’t mean it’s true. Feelings are NOT the facts. Instead of looking at how you “feel,” look at your patterns. Look at your actions. Look at what is driving you.
Your past hurts influence how you feel and your perspectives, and this is why letting our feelings be the sole guiding light in our decision is very dangerous. They absolutely are PART of the decision making process, but definitely do NOT belong in the driver’s seat.
You have never known yourself to be any other way, because you don’t know who you are without the wounded part of you. I can’t tell you how many times I cleared something from my past and how it INSTANTLY shifted how I viewed something or felt something. The wounded energy we carry is so much a part of us, that we don’t even know what’s possible without it until we face it and clear it….and then all of a sudden we feel the truth of the situation. I used to ONLY date those unavailable me and now…no way. The thought exhausts me. Another example is I had a very popular and well known life coach have a VERY strong reaction to something I said that challenged how she approached something. I triggered her into her abusive, critical, and narcissistic self. She completely tore me to pieces with her words. My past self would have crumbled. My heart would have broken, I would have done everything I could to appease her, it would have activated my need to have everyone like me – her reaction would have triggered me into my little girl energy still carrying the pain…but instead…it felt like a pin prick level of pain. I was soooo grounded in the truth that no matter what she thought of me, I KNEW I was lovable. I KNEW I was a good person, even though she didn’t think so. I did not give HER story about me, authority. I stayed empowered, clear, and connected to my value, even when she was having her reaction. I 100% knew that her reaction to me had to do with uncleared stuff from her past, because she was behaving like a 12 year old. She was not an adult, she was in her child. That’s not for ME to fix or deal with or take ownership of. So because I had been working a lot at that time on clearing my need to be liked, I was able to navigate her reaction to me with a much higher level of consciousness and connection to the truth of the situation.
It absolutely IS your decision. I’m just pointing out that he is a bigger project. Relationships are difficult enough as it is…but adding on top of that a guy who is socially challenged in the way he is…it just makes being in relationship with him that much harder. Why choose this hard? Have you ever been in an easy relationship?
I feel like I’m being asked to change a core part of my personality without knowing what that change looks like I’m not sure if I answered this or explained this, so let me know if you still me more understanding.
I also feel like the worst-case scenarios about his ability to feel joy and step out of his shell a little are VERY exaggerated. This could absolutely be true! All I have to go by is what you say and my instincts about what you are saying. We don’t have the ability to have the back and forth, which allows questions and deeper understanding. This platform is very limiting compared to what could happen in person. I appreciate you clarifying and continuing to explain, as it helps me see where I am missing the target.
By having someone in my circle set me up the way people met before the internet, I would not have to navigate a difficult dating pool, and continue on with a clear conscience and clear intentions of focusing on one person at at time. I understand your aversion to online dating. It’s a very intense process and one I don’t recommend for most people. Why not expand your friend group? There are all kinds of meetup type of groups for common interests….like hiking, dog play dates, happy hour etc. There are platforms where people host events like this so everyone with common interests can meet each other. If something romantic comes out of it, then great! If not, that’s okay too! The challenge with your friend group is if something doesn’t work out with whomever they set you up with, there is a possibility that it will change the relationship you have with your friend/s who set you up in the first place. Just something to consider. Either way, consider expanding your social circle!
I feel like I’m being encouraged to just walk out on someone who’s already demonstrated an ability and willingness to provide some of my most critical needs – common interests, similar living preferences, drive and initiative with both his music and his career/working life, my preferred amount of personal space, and conscientiousness and emotional safety – just because he’s inexperienced and clueless about how to start a relationship and has some social and emotional struggles. He definitely is checking a lot of critical boxes. Where I am coming from is more reverse engineering. We do know MOST of what makes a relationship healthy and sustainable. Of course there are always variables that cannot be measured, but there are foundational components that are needed. One of those components is how people treat each other in their very worst moments….the worst hurt, the worst anger, the worst upset..feelings of betrayal and disappointment, the worst stress etc. How a couple navigates these moments will make or break their success. It’s the WORST of a person that needs to hold the most value when we are looking to offer our hearts to someone. The reality is, love, as it grows and deepens, will absolutely shine a light and trigger the darkest corners that carry the most intense pain within us. It’s inevitable. So…paying attention to how someone handles stress is CRUCIAL. It’s during those super stressful times where trust is built up or shattered. And if it’s shattered, the relationship breaks. Usually not right away, but over time the relationship will fail because there is a crack in the foundation. I’m encouraging you to give more weight and credence to his stress response. Although you guys have worked through some smaller things more seemlessly and with a lot of respect, none of it was in person. Who you saw IN PERSON and how he responded to stress IN THE MOMENT was that he pulled away. That’s called stonewalling. It’s where the person’s system goes into “overdrive” and they have to retreat and they become unavailable. This is a coping mechanism that absolutely breaks connection over time. This will ALWAYS be his coping mechanism. He will ALWAYS want to run away and hide. Our coping mechanisms never change as our response to stress is woven into our personalities. I am exactly like him…I retreat. Today, that urge is absolutely still there, but I have cleared enough of the pain from my past, that my adult self is able to handle situations differently. I know how to better manage that response to retreat…but only because I have done a lot of healing work and cleared a TON of those child stories that imprinted on my system. I know you have had some beautiful and amazing experiences with him and I love that. I’m just saying that from what you have shared, he is not set up to have a successful, deep, intimate love that I know you want. He doesn’t have the ability to offer that…at least not with who he is today. Can he change? Absolutely. He would need to get some help and it would take many years…but maybe you are up for that! Maybe what he offers is good enough for you. That’s something only you will know. From an outside perspective, the foundation for success is not present, so the odds of it being what you want long term, are not high. AND ….I could be totally wrong!
However, the cumulative failure over the years has begun to weigh on me, it’s affecting how I carry myself in social situations, and a lot of the self-work I’ve done through reading books and going to therapy has started to suffer because of the cumulative effects of all this failure. This is a perfect example of a story you are carrying in your system that is full of wounded energy. You call your experiences “failures.” A clear, non wounded perspective would call them “learning experiences.” You call them failures just because the end result was a breakup. I call them experiences that brought you a TON of learning….learning how to communicate, learning about your needs, learning about what works and doesn’t work, learning about love, learning about your limitations, learning how to navigate their limitations…I could make a mile long list of the gifts that “failed” relationships bring into our lives….so are they really “failures” when so many good things came out of them?
You are saying it’s “cumulative.” It’s only cumulative because you are not completely clearing the negative energy out of each situation, so it’s now exhausting you…as it should. More gunk keeps getting piled on top of you and you are having to carry that everywhere you go. It doesn’t have to be cumulative. The goal is to enter into each new experience with a clean slate. If you cleared all the gunk after each experience, there is no buildup of anything. So the fact that you are feeling exhausted, THAT is the language of the subconscious. THAT is a symptom of the level of baggage you are carrying around. THAT is the “target” that if you went down that rabbit hole, I guarantee you would find a boatload of stories, pain, anger etc. from when you were younger. So…my mindset is that when I feel things like what you are feeling, I say “thank you for letting me know. Thank you for showing me where I am stuck and clogged up. Now I know and now I can open this up and use this opportunity to clear the lies that are keeping me stuck.” So I use my techniques, I work with my coach, I peel back the layers to find out what is sourcing this feeling….and it’s never the current situation, it’s always something from the past….the current situation just presses the button that activates the network of stories we are holding from our past.
I have said sooooooo much here and it’s really just the surface level. It’s hard to try and explain all of this by typing it out. I usually teach this stuff in webinars with diagrams and I am able to show ALL the pieces at once. I’m hoping that at the very least, what I have explained will help you understand your situation on a deeper level.
In the end Jessica, you have 2 choices: 1. keep trying to work things out with this guy. This path will have very specific lessons for you 2. Decide this kind of hard is not what you want and let it go. This path will also have a lot of lessons for you. Both paths can be hard and both paths will carry many gifts for you. So you just have to decide which kind of hard you want to be in relationship with.
Heidi
Hi Bonnie,
Welcome back! Wow….it’s been 4 years! That’s a long time!
So it sounds like you both have created a connection that is pleasant and stable and predictable. I’m glad you have taken some time to get to know yourself! After 32 years of marriage, there is a whole new side of yourself to get to know. Well done for taking that time for yourself!
So I’m curious. Have you liked this guy the whole time? Tell me why you are interested in dating him. Do you imagine it could turn into something more serious?
This is a bit of a tough one because if it doesn’t work out, feeling safe to be at home without you 2 running into each other will be difficult. You never know how endings will go. Dating is a big risk in and of itself, but you 2 have the added layer of living in the same complex, which makes this whole thing EXTREMELY risky. I’m wondering if he just doesn’t want to risk it.
Has there been any flirting at all? Do you get any sense that he might be interested? Who initiates the texting / conversations more? Or is it pretty equal?
I also want to suggest to just start dating and getting your feet wet again. Have you been on any dates the past 4 years?
Heidi
Hi Misti,
I am soooooo so sorry for what you are going through. It’s awful to have not only lost your son, but now you are losing your husband.
Did either of you get some help to process the loss? Group support? A therapist? Anything of that nature? He obviously is acting out and doesn’t know how he feels, because he has sooooo much pain he is carrying inside and not working through, that he is seeking pleasure anywhere he can find it…and he is not even aware he is doing it. He needs some help. His behaviors are impulsive, which is indicative of someone trying to escape how they are feeling…and again…a lot of people are not even consciously aware they are doing that. They are just letting their feelings guide them and their feelings are strong and very real, but they have no clue that their feelings are actually not real – they are a result of wanting to escape from something big they are carrying that they have buried.
What to do? This is a tough one Misti. If he is not willing to get help, there is not much you can do. He is being destructive (which is a common response to the loss of loved ones). If he isn’t willing to face the pain of the losses he is carrying, he will only continue to sabotage any happiness in his life…that’s just how it works. So you can either continue to witness his sabotage and be part of it, or you can set some clear boundaries with him. What those boundaries are will be up to you and what you are willing to deal with.
The first thing I would do is to keep your kids out of this. They are NOT old enough to understand the dynamics about what is happening. They of course can have their feelings about it with each of you individually, but BOTH of you need to agree that they can express how they feel, but it’s still an adult issue between the both of you to figure out and navigate. They really only need to get the cliff notes version of what is going on and you BOTH need to agree to protect them from the darker details. Kids do not even fully develop their ability for abstract thinking until their early 20s, so anything abstract – like what is happening in your family right now – they WILL NOT be able to fully understand or process. What they need to see and what you both need to role model is that it’s messy AND you will work together to find common ground. What they need to be role modeled is how to respect each other in this mess, even in the worst pain. Respect means no name calling, no criticism, no cutting each other down, continuing to communicate, honoring that you each have a story and perspective that feels VERY real, even though they are different. That will show your kids what it looks like to navigate messiness in a healthy way. From what you are saying, it sounds like your kids are getting in the middle of this and that is not a place kids need to be. And sometimes, when parents work together FOR THE KIDS and find common ground when dealing with the kids, that common goal and that collaboration FOR THE KIDS can actually help bring healing. Sometimes not, but at the very least, it keeps things in check for the whole family.
Would YOU consider getting help and work with a professional? There are soooo many feelings here and having a guide can help things go so much better!
Heidi
Thank you for explaining all of this! I helps me understand your perspective more.
because I would always feel that these types of men would appreciate me more I understand why you would believe this. I know it’s only been half true, but what I will say is there is no relevance to this belief. A person’s ability to appreciate has nothing to do with whether they are attractive, are an underdog, socially awkward, popular, nerdy etc. It has to do with how connected they are to themselves and how much they have cleared their baggage from the past.
I myself am a Highly Sensitive Person and need someone on my level Explain what this means. How are you sensitive and what “level” are you talking about?
a lot of times I find that when a guy pursues me very aggressively, I get chased into a corner and shut down because I have someone in front of me showering me with affection when I don’t know them and have had no time to develop feelings for them This is a pretty normal response to what is called “love bombing.” Those type of guys are absolutely unhealthy and draining and out of balance. However, there is no need to “shut down.” It’s so important that you learn how to stay empowered no matter who is in front of you. Staying empowered means that you recognize that pattern, know it’s not something you want to engage with and you communicate that you are not interested and go about your way. Shutting down is a “victim” response and your coping mechanism, so recognizing that gets triggered in you means you are living in the past and not in the present and your child self is taking over. This is exactly why I LOVE dating…it gives us soooooo many different opportunities to learn about ourselves, our triggers, our limitations, our stories etc. which then gives us an opportunity to heal what still lives within us from the past.
And I won’t lie, it feels very rewarding to earn the love and trust of a more guarded, sensitive man – I feel more deeply loved and appreciated by someone who feels as deeply and deliberately as I do. You are pairing “guarded and sensitive” with someone who feels as “deeply and deliberately” as you do. This also is NOT a truth. Someone sensitive and guarded also means they could be deeply wounded. They may feel things more deeply, but that’s not necessarily a good thing if they don’t know how to handle those feelings in a healthy, clear way.
And, as the nature of the beast seems to have it, the quieter, more sensitive, and even awkward men that I’m drawn to are almost always fighting something. This is also another story you have created. The truth is, EVERYONE is fighting something. I have yet to meet a person who isn’t dealing with something in their life.
The thing is Jessica, everyone has problems, a dark side, limitations, greatness, kindness, love and appreciation within them. I want to invite you to expand your viewpoint. You say this: seeing too many other women chasing after a guy, no matter how much or how little attention he’s giving them back, makes me like the guy even less but what you are not realizing is that you are attracted to the same type of guy (emotionally unavailable) just with a different flavor to him. The truth is, you are attracted to the type of guys that you are, because you have chosen to believe that they are the safest because of your past experiences of being bullied. You still carry a lot of wounding energy around those experiences and that wounded, little girl energy is who is picking these guys, NOT your adult energy. You have a heart for the “awkward” or the ones on the outside of the circle, because in a way, you are wanting to give to them, what you never received yourself….that love and acceptance for exactly who you are.
If you healed from your past, the type of guy you would be attracted to would be completely different. I have done A LOT of healing from my past and I can tell you that there are PLENTY of guys out there that are higher functioning, full of gratitude, love, and kindness and are NOT on the outside, socially awkward, dealing with depression, or any of those thing you are qualifying as being “safe.” AND, these higher functioning guys have their own demons they deal with too.
We all have this invisible backpack that we are carrying around called our past, that is full of fear, stories, anger, hurt etc – EVERYONE – whether a recluse or the most popular person in your circle. What makes a healthy and sustainable connection are 2 people that are willing to work on what lives in their backpack – 2 people that communicate in respectful ways – 2 people that grow and learn about themselves and each other – 2 people that know how to face their fears in a healthy way. So instead of looking for those guys that are “on the outside” just look for a guy that you connect with. He could be popular, he could be a complete nerd but social, he could be more quiet and introverted….who knows! But give EVERY guy a chance to show you who he is and date from a place of looking for someone who is higher functioning, not a project that you can help and fix so you can feel more valuable. Does this make sense?
and definitely doesn’t have any idea how much women (especially) read into someone’s social media behavior. Yes! very true AND this drives me nuts that women do this. They create entire stories around words without ever talking to the guy about it and trying to understand whether or not the story they created has any validity to it. I very rarely give social media any credence. It’s the face to face that needs to be paid attention to with social media having as much value as a grain of sand.
Heidi
It sounds like you are quite grounded about the situation. You have a lot of experience with depressed guys? Tell me more about this. How? Why?
I would believe him and let him walk because that shows that he doesn’t trust me and isn’t listening to how I really feel. I’m willing to do a lot for him, but he needs to trust me. Let’s talk about this a bit, because there is a bit of mindset tweak that needs to be recognized. You say he “needs to trust you” but their reality is, he cannot and never will trust you until he is able to trust himself first. Primary trust (self-trust) needs to exist first and foremost before being able to have secondary trust (the trust with another). So you are asking and needing and wanting him to trust you when he doesn’t even trust himself. That will just never work. It’s not realistic nor attainable. Our relationship with ourself will ALWAYS determine the level and type of connection we have with others.
If he’s not willing to take risks and try his best, even if he struggles a bit, then that means that he doesn’t trust that I accept him for who he is and that he’s attempting to talk over me. He needs to manage whatever negative narrative he has and trust me. This is another statement saying if he doesn’t do…”then he doesn’t trust me and he needs to trust me.” It has this flavor of “I’m not good enough for him to trust me.” I know you know better than this. But knowing how the psyche works, I’m going to guess not being trusted or believed or being questioned – something within that flavor – is an issue you have faced quite a bit in the past and it seems like it’s a bit of a trigger for you somehow. Yes? No? Being around or with depressed people is exhausting and very challenging. It activates so much powerlessness because no matter what you say or do, the depressed person’s stories and feelings are what is true for them…so your words, your experience, your perspective doesn’t matter. Depressed people don’t ever “trust” others.
Since you have a lot of experience with depressed guys, I’m wondering what’s happening for you that you want to engage in this type of relationship again. It’s very clear that he has A LOT to deal with. Living life on a daily basis is challenge enough for him. He is facing fears on a daily basis and now you want to ask him to do it even more…and not just any fears, his GREATEST fears. He has so much low self-esteem that no matter what you say or do, he is fragile from the core. He needs A LOT of help and the kind of social skills he needs to even be able to handle a romantic relationship with a higher functioning woman…well, it would take a TON of time and work just to get to the baseline. He is a project Jessica. A very BIG project. I know you have your standards. You say this: “A lot of what I’m willing to work with and not is rooted in whether or not the guy trusts me” and yet here you are not holding to your standard. It’s clear that he doesn’t trust you and he never will…he doesn’t have that ability…even if he were to go to the front of the stage with you or engage socially with your friends, it won’t be comfortable for him, it won’t be fun for him, it won’t be easy for him….it will be PURE struggle and his struggle will dampen your joy. His struggle will impact your ability to have fun because he is not likeminded with you. He will not find joy in the same things you do because of his fear.
Let me explain it this way…likemindedness is INCREDIBLY important for the success of a relationship – especially when it comes to joy. Here is an example: Imagine you are sitting on the sand, looking out at the ocean and watching the sunset…and you are so connected to the beauty, the peace, the vibrant colors, the sound of the birds…it puts you in a state of pure gratitude and connection with nature. Then he comes along and sits next to you. You share your thoughts about how beautiful it is, how amazing you feel, and the bliss you are in. His response is “Ya, it’s pretty….let’s go, I’m hungry.” His lack of likemindedness not only crushes your bliss, it takes you to a lower state of being than even before you saw the sunset. Studies have been done on this by the way.
My point is, his inability to be likeminded about enjoying social interactions will change how you get to experience your joy. When you are at the front of the stage and enjoying the music, bumping shoulders with people, having fun – all of that will be dampened because you will know that he is struggling and NOT having fun and having to deal with massive amounts of fear. And you will know it and feel it and that means you are not FREE to just be and enjoy yourself the way you can.
So I’m circling back to this: this guy is going to be EXTREMELY high maintenance and A LOT of work for you, even if he were to step up a bit. You know depressed guys…so are you okay stepping into a very similar situation again? A situation where your words and your perspective will not be believed by him? A situation where his low self-esteem will be front and center all the time? A situation where you will constantly be trying to help him feel safe in his life? I’m not sure why you think that having a few more experiences with him will change the core issues he has…his challenges are SO BIG that what you saw the first time was not a once off thing. It’s how he moves through the world. Do you REALLY need more information? What you want, he cannot offer you. This will be hard, but if that what you want…you definitely get to give it a shot! I know I’ve done that, knowingly, many times. I wanted connection more than peaceful and easy. Maybe it’s something to consider and look at within yourself.
Heidi
Hi Jessica! Welcome!
Thank you for sharing so much detail as it helps give a more clear picture of the dynamics that may be going on. It’s very obvious that you have a lot of self-awareness and level of emotional intelligence that will make this challenge of yours, more easy to navigate. I love that you have done some research already to help set yourself up for success. Well done!
I’m not going to answer your questions quite yet, because I want to invite you to think about a few things first and then we can go from there.
I understand that how you feel and experience this guy (online only) makes you feel more open and safe than you have ever felt before. That is so very powerful! I can understand why you feel so connected and bonded to him. The problem is, that is actually not translating to the reality of who he is in person and that absolutely will sabotage the success of this relationship. Your expectations of what it would be like in person were not the issue. Your expectations were pretty appropriate for how you guys were connecting in person. I know it’s always best to go into things WITHOUT expectation, but that is just not realistic. We all do it and always will. It’s just part of being human. So I would more say that your problem was not about what you were expecting, the problem was that he is VERY different in person than he is online or on the phone. His level of social anxiety is EXTREMELY high. I’m wondering is he on the spectrum. Regardless, his reactions to you have NOTHING to do with who you are, your bubbly personality, your lack of making him feel comfortable around you. His reactions to you have 100% responsibility to do with whatever disorder he is dealing with. This is something you cannot fix for him. I don’t care how comfortable he eventually gets around you, it will never change how he deals with social situations IN PERSON.
So here is the thing Jessica….imagine 10 years down the road, you are going to dinner with your friends without him AGAIN. Your friends barely know him and you guys hardly go out and do anything because it’s just too overwhelming for him. Imagine a life where you do all your bonding INSIDE the home and hardly do anything outside the home. Trying to get him to try new things will be like pulling teeth for him. That’s what a life with him will most likely be like. Yes, he has friends, but how well do they actually know him? How much time does he actually even spend socializing with his friends IN PERSON? And how long did it take for him to even become friends with them? And what are his past experiences with relationships? It sounds like trying to develop relationships with anyone new IN PERSON is extremely difficult for him. And as you have seen, it doesn’t take much for him to disappear. That is his survival mechanism. When something gets hard enough, he will pull away and go into his “cave” and become unavailable. He did that with your chat group, which is window into how HE handles stress. He may have been a great listener with you, but when it comes to how HE is feeling, with enough stress and the right kind of stress, he is the type that will shut you out and go into hermit mode. Whatever disorder he is dealing with, those tendencies will ALWAYS win. His fear will ALWAYS be greater than any love he may develop for you. His fear will ALWAYS win. It’s in the driver’s seat of his life until he decides to do something about it.
So…you are looking at entering into a relationship where you become the parent and he becomes the child. You are already doing it by wanting to act different, be different, do different in order to make HIM feel safe. You already do not feel you can just be your authentic self without scaring him away. That is mothering. Moms are meant to make the environment safe for their child and that is exactly what you are doing. He is an adult and you need to treat him as such. You need to expect a man to be able to handle his fears and challenges and face them head on. You need a man to be strong enough to handle your authentic self. You need a man to have enough self-esteem to be able to communicate with you honestly and NOT need any handholding from you…and that’s what you are setting yourself up to do….A LOT of handholding. The relationship will end up becoming about him and HIS safety and you constantly trying to figure out how to make it okay for him. Is this really what you want?
Let’s look at the reality here. The connection and safety you feel with this guy is NOT enough and here is why. Relationships last because 2 people are able to work through the worst moments with each other TOGETHER. A relationship with this guy IN PERSON means you would end up feeling quite a lone in a lot of different ways. I have no doubt he would be able to meet some of your needs, but there would be a lot he would NOT be able to meet because of his level of anxiety of which he has no control over other than creating isolation for himself to recalibrate.
I’m not saying it couldn’t work, but in order to make this relationship work, it would take A LOT of work on your side, it would throw the balance off quite a bit while you spend your energy trying to constantly help him feel safe and it would be a lot of you mothering him. That works for a while, but I guarantee you, at some point, you will be drained of everything you have and you would eventually not feel happy with him. It is not an easy path you are choosing to try and have a relationship with a guy who is dealing with whatever lives in him. It works incredibly well over technology where he gets to have his space and you don’t have to deal with his intense fear and low self-esteem all the time. He needs some help. He is NOT a high functioning guy when it comes to relationships, so you really have to look BEYOND the connection you feel and look at the reality of who he is and what he can offer you. The reality is, IN PERSON he is NOT the kind of guy you most likely would be attracted to. If you had met him organically and in person, I’m guessing nothing would have ever started because he is not open to meeting new people. That’s the reality of who he is IN PERSON. He doesn’t have the skills nor enough self-esteem to be able to hold and sustain a romantic connection. Romantic connections are INCREDIBLY stressful and hold the most fear for everyone…not just him. He already can barely deal with just surface connections in person, and you want him to be able to support a romantic, deep kind of relationship with you that is going to activate LOADS of fear in him and in you? Because that is what love does…it activates soooooo many insecurities, fears, coping mechanisms, hurt, pain etc.
So…I’m going to ask you….do you really want to try and make this work with guy who is not set up to be able to sustain or develop a deep, intimate relationship? I won’t blame you for trying, as I know the connection you feel with him is strong…the problem is, is it’s a connection that doesn’t translate into reality IN PERSON. It only works online.
Thoughts?
Heidi
Hi Marina,
I’m so sorry for what you are going through. I know how incredibly good it feels to feel deeply connected to someone. I know you just want to keep nourishing that connection and keep it going. It’s so hard to watch it slip away and not be able to do anything about it. It’s heartbreaking. Of course you want to keep this going!
I’m going to validate the answer you already know but don’t want to admit to. It’s time to let go. He is not willing to put the effort in and he not only told you that, he is now showing you that and it’s important for you to listen to that.
I know you feel that deep connection, but it’s not being reciprocated. His ACTIONS are showing you that. And….most guys do not get THAT deeply bonded to a woman in just a few months with only a handful of visits. You are moving pretty fast with a guy you barely know. He is also military and he knows he gets moved around, so I’m guessing he never really invested on the deep level that you did. I’m only saying this because a guy who is DEEPLY invested, is willing to do the long distance thing. A guy who absolutely feels like the woman he is with is a woman he wants to continue to have in his life, he will do the long distance thing. A guy who is invested, wouldn’t text you “I miss you” and then drive an hour to have sex one last time and then completely disconnect. That’s actually a very unkind thing he did. He opened your heart, he bonded with you physically and then completely became unavailable. That is NOT a caring thing to do at all. To me, it comes across as him wanting to get one more dose of you before he left and was a completely selfish thing to do. He wasn’t thinking at all about how it impacts you. His ACTIONS, not his words, are telling you how invested he really is and from an outside perspective, he is not invested to the level you are and he is gone.
I know how much this breaks your heart. I know that falling in love is such a beautiful thing and to not have it reciprocated is incredibly painful. AND…it’s time for you to let him go. You want a guy who has NOTHING stopping him from wanting to know you. You want a guy who WANTS to stay connected no matter where he is. You want a guy who is so invested in you that he is willing to do what it takes to stay connected. This guy is definitely NOT that guy and you need to let him go. He is not enough for you. He is not able to offer you what you want and that is VERY clear. So it’s time to accept this and let your broken heart begin to heal. The more you try and reach out, the more you try to re-ignite things, your heart is going to keep breaking from his lack of response. Your best option is to close the door and begin to heal. I’m soooo so sorry!
Heidi
I used to love that time we spent going to the game and then after. Sometimes we would grab something to eat after and I enjoyed that time.. I understand. This new design of how you both move through life currently, is NOT permanent. It’s just temporary. You both still have A LOT to learn about each other and you will go through many different phases. So while you miss hockey, it will circle back around. The more you create a life separate than him, the more you give him space, the more the business becomes successful, the relationship will shift and change. I’m guessing that when you miss hockey, you are viewing it as if it will never happen again. Maybe it won’t, BUT it’s also possible that a date night gets thrown in there and you get to spend that same type of time with him, just in a different way.
What I don’t know or understand yet is how to see exactly what my parents did or didn’t do created this. I know I will learn that through coaching. Yes, I can see how this would be confusing. First, it’s important to understand that our genetics our personality impact how we respond to life. That’s why one child will turn out completely different than their sibling, even with the same type of traumas. We are just built differently. In a very basic way, whatever happens as a child, it stays in state specific form. This means that whatever age a trauma or challenging moment happened, it sticks in the brain with the mindset of that child. For example, your entire life changed at age 13 when you got picked up from school and driven to a different home. Your 13 year old brain created a story around what that meant about life, about you, about family, about love etc. and it stays in a 13 year old mentality. Our brains do not fully develop abstract thinking until our early 20s, so whatever happens before that time means that we do not have the full capability to process challenging moments in life with FULL understanding. So…when you get triggered and abandonment feelings come up, it’s you viewing that moment through the lens of your 13 year old, because you’ve never processed those 13 year old stories and feelings. It’s stuck as a 13 year old. So as the 13 year old, you are wanting your boyfriend or anybody else to parent you…to fix how you are feeling…to make everything okay for you…to comfort you….to create stability for you….you want them to do for you what your parents should have done for you and because they didn’t, it left you feeling like you cannot feel safe in the world, especially safe in love. If your parents were so uncaring to never talk to you about their separation, about what was happening, and they never took the time to prepare you for the changes, then that tells me enough about the kind of parents they were and how many other moments they did not prepare you for life in a healthy way. So now as an adult, anxiety (fear of the future) is your constant companion. Does this make a little more sense?
Sometimes I do wish he would communicate with me when something is bothering him. Is there anything I can do to make it more comfortable for him to do that and not feel like he doesn’t want to hurt me? Yes….I hear this from women ALL THE TIME. They want their men to talk so much more than they do. I get it AND it’s also part of understanding how your guy moves through life differently than you do. Why he doesn’t talk includes a TON of variables….most of which involve how his parents raised him and their role modeling. It also is about his genetics and personality and it’s also about his own relationship with love. With every woman in his past “leaving him” he is going to have the story that women leave running in his veins. And he is not the type to dive in and look at that story and clear it so you can have a clean slate. It’s a story he will live with forever, so he will always be holding back a part of who he is…because that’s just what people do to “survive” instead of heal. We all have our backpacks FULL of stuff we carry around with us everywhere we go. So that means that being in relationship with him means you are loving his backpack full of his crap too….and in that backpack are a lot of things you haven’t even discovered yet. I would also suggest reading “Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus.” It’s an old book, but I feel explains the differences of men and women and how we move through relationship differently. In the end, it’s dangerous to keep “wishing” he was different. That thinking is you building a wall between you. That thinking puts you in a mindset of lack and making him “not enough” and that will absolutely leak out into your interactions with him. So again, it’s YOUR job to accept him for EXACTLY who he is and focus on what he IS doing.
Right now, things are getting better. Right now, he is becoming more affectionate. Right now, the business is bringing more money in. Now you know that when finances get more tight, he will shut down more and become less available – that’s his stress response – his coping mechanism that has NOTHING to do with you – and this is who you are choosing. His coping mechanism of pulling away is going to activate your anxiety and abandonment issues – this will be a forever pattern, so NOW is the time to learn how to navigate it differently. You cannot expect that HE will change, so all you can do is work with your own triggers and learn how to stay empowered WHEN he rejects you again…because it’s going to happen MANY more times.
So keep your focus on what you DO have. Every time you start to wish he were different, ALSO add in those thoughts about what he IS doing that you love. It keeps things more in balance.
Keep writing to us! We are here and the best thing you can do for yourself is to continue hearing different perspectives, different approaches, different ways of moving through your triggers.
Heidi
Hi Lynda,
Checking in. How are you feeling? Are you able to shift some of how you are viewing the situation? It’s a pretty tough thing to do when you have strong and powerful wounds that are sourcing your viewpoint. But maybe you are starting to see how your past is influencing how you are experiencing your relationship and what is happening. Any new developments?
Heidi
