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Hey Heidi! I’m not purposely neglecting to update you, but I ended up breaking my wrist, so I’m in tons of pain at the moment. I’ll give you the Reader’s Digest version now, and I can fill in the details later.
Yes, we did talk. It was eye-opening for me. It was difficult for me to listen without interrupting, but I forced myself to do so. By the time he was done (and since I did actually listen), I had had some painful epiphanies about myself— the way I lead with my fears, the defensive way I act sometimes when he has done nothing wrong, the times I jump to conclusions and then kind of punish him for imaginary things. I have it built up in my mind that he’s so incredibly dysfunctional, but by the time I was done listening to him, I felt confused, because he was coming across as so level-headed and emotionally regulated, and he was basically telling me he doesn’t want this unhealthy dynamic. At first I thought he was projecting because he told me that I’m always hot and cold, but when he gave examples I realized that he was right. I’m in no way suggesting he has been meeting all my needs and doing everything right, but there were missing puzzle pieces that I have now… and I see myself more clearly. For decades I have fostered kittens, mostly orphaned kittens, and sometimes even a tiny one will already have a feral demeanor, hissing at anything and everything for no reason. This image came in my mind when I reflected on myself. But actually I’ve been worse than a feral kitten because I am really warm, cuddly and sweet at times. Anyway, he said he was really hurt when we all ate out together and I snapped at him in a mean way in response to him just being playful. He said it took him so off guard, he hadn’t felt that exposed and cut in a long, long time. He thought I would apologize after I thought about it, and that was part of the reason he withdrew a bit. He said he wasn’t mad, but he guesses he did feel surprised and hurt again that I was so unaware of how I talked to him. He said it wasn’t the first time, but it was the worst, I guess. He hates confrontation, so he will withdraw rather than talk to me and tell me what I said or did to hurt him. When he finally finished and I had the chance to talk, I told him that I think that many of the issues we have could be avoided with improved communication. If he isn’t being open and honest with me about his thoughts and feelings and I sense that something isn’t aligning, then I start feeling unsafe and confused. It’s like a domino effect. He did seem to understand my point, but we need to discuss all of that further. He said that he and I should each make a list of our needs and wants, and when we get together in person (which will be tomorrow most likely), we can have a candid discussion about whether or not we are able to meet each other’s needs and desires in this relationship. I think that sounds like a good idea, so I’m doing that.
I’m not sure if I’m leaving things out or telling this in a confusing way, but hopefully you followed most of that. I had no idea what a mess I am; it’s a little upsetting to realize it, but I’m thankful to at least be aware now.
Btw, thank you for all of the validation and for not being harsh with me about not yet feeling ready to end things with this man. You said, “The reality is, people don’t make changes until they are in enough pain in their situation” which made me think about how long it took me to finally get out of my last relationship. Apparently I have a pretty high pain tolerance. Lol. I have felt some things shift inside me, though. He and I haven’t talked yet (that will be tomorrow evening, I believe), and I’m feeling… peaceful about it. I’m not sure if I can fully articulate the feeling I have, but I think that peace comes from feeling less invested in any certain outcome. If he doesn’t want to be with me, or even if he wants to continue but without enthusiasm about me or the relationship, then I don’t want to be with him. He might have some legitimate complaints about something I said or did (and if he does, I’ll own those things and apologize), but I think it’s also possible that he is simply sabotaging without conscious awareness.
To be transparent with you, I have to admit that it made me feel really anxious to read the list of actions you suggested I need to take upon us breaking up. I understand your recommendations, though.
Such great insights- again. I understand what you said here about my perception being skewed because of my past experiences. That makes sense. It’s healthy for me to want the calm reactions and to not feel uncomfortable with them, but it shouldn’t stand out as such a gigantic selling point. It’s base line.
What you explained about Upper Limits so intrigued me that I looked it up and researched online in my brief time I had between sessions today, so I could find out more. Fascinating! I found one article in particular that I really liked a lot: https://experiencelife.lifetime.life/article/overcome-your-upper-limits/
I’m going to start self-work immediately to address my Upper Limits, beginning with trying to be more aware of times my subconscious is enforcing those limits.
The guy I’ve been dating told me in a text this morning that he has been distant for over a week now because of some things I said or did that were off-putting to him. I have zero idea what he’s talking about, but he seemed also concerned that if he tried to share these things with me, I wouldn’t listen and would maybe shut him down. He asked me to basically promise that if he talks to me about these things, I need to listen. I said I would, and now I feel more confused than ever, because it’s now seeming like I’m the one who is a mess, and he is too intimidated by me (I guess either my intelligence or the fact that I tend to be more direct than he is since he avoids confrontation even to his own detriment (he has avoided talking to his boss for over two months now even though his boss hasn’t paid him in all that time, for example). So I’ll be doing a video chat with him tonight or tomorrow night— when we can both be free— and I’ll know more after that. I don’t think I’m being gaslighted; I guess it depends on what he says to me.
Does the lady you worked with one-on-one do virtual sessions? If not, do you know of anyone else (virtual or in Tampa Bay) who would have a similar knowledge and philosophy as you?
Thank you.
Jennie
One more thing: you might have some insights on this that haven’t yet occurred to me, but it seems to me that one thing that drew me to this guy was more in the healthy category, but I didn’t know until more time passed by how he would regularly go into these extremely low moods for a week or more. But when I first started dating him, I recall that one of the first things that made me really start warming up to him, feeling safe with him, was that he always stayed calm when I expected him to go into an anger outburst (my dad, step-dad, ex-husband, and ex-boyfriend were/are all pretty explosive, so I guess I’ve come to expect that). I had spilled my smoothie all over the inside of my car and was kind of freaking out, and he just smiled, hugged me, and reassured me that it was fine while grabbing me some towels. There were many other times I would feel my knotted stomach, and then I would feel such a sense of relief when he responded calmly every time. It made me start viewing him as safe and good for me (which I later had to reconsider because his sudden detachment feels worse than any anger outburst I’ve been around before— and some were huge.
Heidi, several times you referenced “hiding” and me hiding in the sub-par relationships. Would you mind explaining what you mean? I’ve tried to figure it out from context, but I don’t think I understand.
Jennie
There is a lot to say, so if I leave anything out, I’m sure I’ll get to it in another message. There’s a lot I’m attempting to process right now.
I like your ideas having to do with me “interviewing” and journaling to become more familiar with my fears. I’m an introspective person, but I seem to have some huge blindspots when it comes to intimate relationships in particular. As I read your message, it occurred to me that all this time I’ve been assuming that my fears all stem from my failed marriage and how painful that was; I now realize that my fears began much earlier in my life.
It’s like the universe is aligning to support my enhanced awareness and healing, because I’m not on social media much at all, but earlier today i came across a reel in which some ideas were explained that were complementary to the things you’ve been sharing with me. One particular thing stuck in my mind; it had to do with how even the “golden child” who is fawned on and adored by the narcissistic parent carries shame that’s rooted in not being authentic (and instead being and doing what is needed, expected for the parent). I talk to parents all the time about the struggle children feel as they try to find balance between a growing need for autonomy/independence and the absolute emotional requirement of feeling attached and connected… but all this time it didn’t occur to me until now how relevant these concepts are to me personally. I won’t go into detail here, but my heart breaks for my brother who would give anything for our father’s approval. Those two seem to always be at odds, and I’ve even tried to teach my brother how to better “handle” our dad, but again— now I realize that while I thought I had it all figured out, my brother is actually being more authentically himself which of course leads to clashes. And it also makes sense what you suggested about it not only being about my dad, because my mom played a big role in all that. My mom and I are really close now, but I had resentment towards her in my teens and early adulthood. She was always successful and outside the home, like in the community, everyone seemed to view her as a strong figure— a great leader, excellent public speaker and all of that. It was a bit strange, because no one knew how subservient she was behind closed doors. It’s like she is a different person in her romantic relationships. The anger I had towards her might’ve in part been because of the divorce (because I was super attached to my dad and missed him), but it was also because she remarried so quickly and to a not-so-nice guy. She finally divorced him after all of us kids had left the home, so it wasn’t for us. Our step-father was particularly cruel to my brother, but I won’t get into that.
Getting back on topic, I kind of got chills when I read the part about me helping the little girl inside me. I’m very good at what I do; I can imagine this being a really effective way to approach my healing. I’m so thankful to you for that idea!
Ok- I understand what you mean now when you say a self-sourced or well-sourced man. It’s so wild that yet again this idea parallels something I often teach parents (how we don’t want children to be little junkies for external validation; their sense of self-worth needs to come from within). The guy I’ve been dating is definitely not well-sourced. He seems to have a strong external focus which I’ve mentioned to him because I think it contributes to his depression. He fixates on the things he wishes were different in his life, and they are all such superficial things.
Right now I’m doing okay because he is still withdrawn in his depression, but I need to brace myself for when he’ll come out of this latest funk which will likely be soon. He doesn’t take me seriously when I tell him I don’t think we should date anymore, that I’m done. It’s my fault, because I’ve cried wolf more times than I can count, and each time I end up caving once he’s actively pursuing me again (or even approaches that, is adequately communicative, etc).
Finally, I don’t know what I want from him that I’m not willing to do for myself. I don’t even know how to wrap my brain around that question. It confuses me. Am I wanting from him something I shouldn’t even need or want at all? I crave depth and emotional closeness, but I don’t date men who are deep. I’ve always said that it’s because I tend to be too serious on my own, so I like for someone to lighten me up, making me laugh a lot, that sort of thing (which is how he is when he’s not in a funk). Anyway, I don’t know what I’ve been trying to get from him that I’m not willing to do for myself. I guess I need to reflect on that one some more.
I’ll close on that note. Again, thanks so much.
How can I tell if a man is well-sourced, as you call it? I know the hallmark signs of emotional intelligence (not that I always look for them), but I have no idea what to look for to see if a man is well-sourced. Does that mean he knows how to take care of himself and isn’t overly dependent? I’m not clear on what that term means.
Ok— so while I feel initially resistant to what you said about my self worth getting mucked up and mixed up with my role (and career) as a counselor, I do understand how something that works in one area of one’s life could potentially be problematic in other areas of life. I specialize in working with young children (I’m a play therapist, animal-assisted play therapist, and sandplay therapist, but I primarily work with ages 3-12.), and I do parent trainings. One reason I love what I do is that I get to see concrete results. Parents are thrilled, the children are more at peace, happier, and have much improved self-efficacy, resilience, and so forth. I give a lot in my work, but I find it to be balanced because I also “get” a lot. My life is enriched in so many ways because of what I do for a living. So I am grateful. But I can see how I’ve brought that dynamic into my romantic life— where I’m an expert about things, can help with things, can give, and give and give… but a) that’s not how romantic relationships are supposed to be structured and b) I’m not even in my wheelhouse, so I often feel powerless and incompetent to help him; I have no idea what to say or do. He went for an interview for another piloting position in Vegas— across the country from where we both live now— and it didn’t go well. While at the airport waiting for his flight to come back to Florida, he sent me multiple messages that sounded downright suicidal. He then said not to worry, he wouldn’t actually do anything because he wouldn’t do that to his grown daughter. I asked him later if it occurred to him how that would impact me, and he said he figured I would just say to myself, “Yeah, that was just some guy I dated for five months,” like no big deal. I’m clearly in over my head, whatever dysfunctional pull led me to this man. ☹️
I agree that I don’t trust myself. It seems to be really hard for me to extricate myself from relationships, and the longer I’m with the man, the more difficult it has been for me, looking back. I enjoy my own company and do have a belief that I’d be fine without the man, so I guess I need to figure out what the payoffs are for me and why I would allow them to come at such high costs to myself. One connection I’ve made since you mentioned fathers is something to do with criticism. The guy I was with for four years was hyper-critical, and I knew literally towards the beginning of that four years that we weren’t building a healthy relationship. The current guy in my life isn’t critical in that same way, but he comes across as indifferent a lot of the time (which gives me that same feeling as when I’m criticized). This might sound stupid, but it also gets really under my skin that he clearly (and openly) prefers when I’m all glammed up with eye liner, bright lipstick, the whole bit. On the whole, I’m a nutty granola kind of woman (I eat healthy, am active, enjoy getting in the muck of things like when volunteering at the wildlife rescue, etc), so I tend to usually go for a more natural look. Most men I’ve met in my life seem to prefer a natural to an overly done-up makeup face, yet I’m dating a guy who loves glam. Lol. I’m trying to strike a balance of sharing what’s important without rambling on too long, but I’ll mention briefly that when I was rather young, I had an eating disorder. It started when my parents divorced; I would pretty much starve myself, but I was still super active— on swim team, dance team, rode my bike daily, etc. Even though I was just a child during those years, I am hyper-aware of how I’m feeling about myself physically; I feel healthy mentally when I’m able to think about what I like already, what I’d like to improve, and it’s without emotion where my worth feels tied to it. As critical as my ex-boyfriend was, it was never about me physically; in fact, I gained probably 40 pounds while with him, and if anything he seemed to like my body more and more. I’m currently at a good weight for my body type and frame; if I lose too much weight, I start looking funny because I never seem to lose in my breasts. Anyway, I know my body looks great, especially for a woman my age, but the guy I’ve been dating recently made a comment about how happy he thinks I’d be if I were 20 pounds lighter. He has no idea how much that comment impacted me because it was a text, but he has hinted at that a couple times before, so I know I didn’t misunderstand. I do need to get to the bottom of why I would choose to be connected to a man who makes me feel so bad on multiple levels even when I know intellectually that I do have options. If someone were to ask me how I feel about myself, I would say I feel good. I feel proud of my accomplishments, and I like who I am. As I said before, I greatly enjoy my own company. This weekend I’m working on some reorganization projects in my home, and while sorting, hanging, etc, I am dancing and singing to music and feeling quite happy. I don’t understand what this is that’s inside me which seems to feel unworthy and low (as evidenced by my decisions, I’m gathering).
I’ll check out those resources you mentioned; thanks for that.
Jen
I’ll add just one thing so I don’t forget: I do believe I have a pattern of choosing men who aren’t at the same level as me, but at least consciously, I don’t think that a desire to rescue is at the root of that pattern. Maybe that plays into it, but my gut tells me it has more to do with me not wanting to give up any of my power or autonomy. I do see the irony in that, though. You talked about fear-based decisions; I think this pattern has to do with fears I have of losing myself, not having a voice in the relationship, etc. I like the idea of trust, but the example of the husband cheating is too easy in a way. All of that could transpire quite quickly. When a man gradually becomes indifferent, seems less engaged, grumpy, never romantic, etc, it could take years of talking to that man, trying to get him to see there’s a problem, eventually maybe convincing him to go to couples counseling, only to have the marriage fall apart anyway because he’s simply not in it anymore. Those are some miserable years that I do fear even as a possibility. I’m not sure how to overcome that.
Alright, closing for real this time. lol.
Jen
Definitely not too much information at once. I’m blown away by how insightful your responses have been— more so than when I was regularly seeing a counselor! My father was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, but he was a unique one with that diagnosis since he spent literally decades going to therapy. It was psychoanalysis, so I think he just enjoyed sitting and talking about himself. Lol. I’m close to my dad (he’s 80 now and seems better in some respects than he was in the past). He has a good heart and is the furthest thing from malignant, but inevitably people sometimes get hurt when a grown man is going through his life as if he were a child (in the way that virtually all children are innocently narcissistic…). My mom divorced my dad when I was 12, because he wouldn’t stop cheating on her— over and over again. Then he would feel guilty and tell her everything each time… Really dysfunctional.
As much as I love my dad still, I do know that when I was in my 20s after graduating with my undergraduate degree, I purposely looked for a man who seemed like my dad’s polar opposite. I found a military man who is a really honorable person, loves boundaries, isn’t flaky whatsoever, etc. We were married for 22 years and many of those were good years, but he was deployed to the Middle East or contracting over there a LOT of the time. He got severe PTSD, and our relationship crumbled. Since my divorce over seven years ago, I’ve been a little lost. I processed the loss of my marriage a long time ago and am in a good place with all that, but I don’t know what I’m doing in respect to my post-divorce dating life.
I like what you said about me rescuing myself instead. I don’t think of myself as someone who needs rescuing, so that’s mind-opening as well.
I have many more thoughts, but I’m pecking this out on my phone, and it’s nearly 2:30am, so I’ll end this for now.
Thank you so much! I’m so grateful for the time you’ve taken.
Heidi, I didn’t directly answer your question about how your post made me feel. In a word— exposed. You nailed it so completely that I felt embarrassed and uncomfortable, to be honest, but I needed to face some of those hard truths, so after I read it a few more times, I still felt overwhelmed but also grateful. A lanced boil isn’t fun, but there is relief. I’ll need to think more about the “genuine” comment I made. I think when I wrote that I was kind of sharing what I tell myself when he’s uncommunicative for several days in a row, because I want to get angry or upset but then I tell myself he is “genuinely” struggling with depression. I do get frustrated frequently, though, because he chooses to be negative, hopeless, etc. I am in my 50s, but I get a lot of attention from men. Just today a man started chatting with me at the gas station, complimented me, and asked if I’d consider going out with him. I don’t dress provocatively, but I take care of myself and feel good about not just how I look but what I bring to the table overall. I don’t know why I would choose a man like this guy unless I’m scared of ending up in a bad marriage (I can easily imagine things seeming great with a man all the way until I’m married and then I’d realize I have zero autonomy, he is a jerk, he takes me for granted and/or is indifferent in general, and I would wish with all my heart that I had just stayed on my own). I don’t know.
Oh wow. What a great response, Heidi. Thank you for taking the time to give me thoughts. Those final two paragraphs hit me like a load of bricks, but I needed it. Thank you.
No, he’s not doing amazing as my partner— not at all. And I have lot to ponder in regard to my choice of this man, as you alluded. I see your point, for sure.
I find it difficult to “disentangle” myself from relationships even after I know they aren’t working for me, so I guess that’s my next challenge!
Ugh— I don’t know why all of this is so difficult for me.
Thanks again.
